Monmouthshire Merlin

1 I FSDAY,FEB.7.— Mr. U. Bowles, the member for Evesham, took the oaths and his seat. A vast number of petitions were presented against Church- rates. Captain Dundas presented a petition from Bristol, praying for the abolition of taxes on soap. A similar petition was pre- sented from Glasgow, by Lord W. Bentinck. In answer to a question from Sir George Sinclair, Lord Mor- peth said that ht 6>)uld not state whether government would be able to bring forward the Irish Tithe Bill before Easter or not. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND.) The part of his Majesty's speech relating to Ireland having been read, Lord John ItusstU said1—Although, Sir, I feel no apprehension as to the result of the motion I am about to make, yet the subject I am about to introduce is of so much impoit- ance, and I fe>e! so strongly that the question of what relates to the political condition of Ireland is so difficult, that 1 approach it with great caution and anxiety. United as we are with that country, and believing that the peopls of England are neither hostile nor indifferent to the ivelfare of Ireland, yet I must con fess that so much misapprehension of the subject exists, that misrepresentation is so easily employed (hear) and with so much difficulty dispelled, that impressions are readily taken and hardly ever removed that misstatements are so hastily put for- ward and laboriously propagated) that I feel great fear lest I should not be able to state my sincere conviction on the subject; while at the same time 1 state forcibly, as I feel strongly, my brm impression; and I hope that my arguments will not fail to induce the house to give its sanction and approbation to the motion with which I shall conclude. (Cheers.) Sir, the bill which I shall propose is of that nature that it requires not any very lengthened defence or explanation. (Hear, hear.) It is simply a bill to remove abuses, and to provide for the Reform of the Irish Corporations. ( Hear.) The abuses are not denied in truth they are stated to be greater than the abuses which pre- vailed in the Corporations of England and Scotland. Neither, sir, is the remedy stated to be an unfit or an unsufficient one. On the contrary you have admitted, Parliament has admitted, that the remedy which has been proposed was a remedy fit for tlie occasion-^fit to be applied to the Corporations of England and Scotland. (Hear, hear, hear.) The whole question, there- fore, is this—that whether the abuses being notorious-that whether the remedy being sufficient-you will apply to Ireland that which you have already applied to Scotland and to Eng- land. And in fact the whole statement in opposition to this bill is little more than this, that whereas Scotland is inhabited by Scotchmen and England by Englishmen, because Ireland is inhabited by Irishmen, they will refuse them the same measure of relief. (Cheers.) Now, sir, I will only say, that with re- spect to the particular provisions of the bill, the bill I now pro- pose to introduce varies very little indeed from the bill passed by this house house last year and that bill was not different in its principle from the bill passed the year before for England. There were one or two points, as the house knows, in which alterations were made in the English bill from that adopted for Scotland and there was also some difference between the bill that had been introduced for Ireland, and the English bill. Sir, another difference which was made in this bill of last year—not at first, but after it came back to this house—was one vesting the appointment of sheriffs in the Crown. (Cheers.) Now, sir, upon this subject I shall state generally my opinion, titat in many of those offices connected with the administration of justice, the Crown ought to have the appointment. In the Scottish bill we gave the appointment of the magistracy ta the councillors in the English bill that appointment is given to the Crown. It i3 now in the Crown, although the advisers of the Crown generally take the advice of the council. In the bill we proposed last year for Ireland, the appointment of she- rifts for towns was vested in the Crown. Now, sir, I have somewhat altered that in the bill 1 now ask leave to introduce. L now propose that the council should nominate three persons, uhose names would be returned to the Lord Lieutenant, of whom the Lord Lieutenant might appoint one, or he might re- ject the whole. In such a case the council would again nomi- nate three more—the Lord Lieutenant might either tppoiat oue, or reject these three he would have the power of reject iny the whole six. and then he would proceed to appoint one on his own responsibility. Sir, I think this right, because I think it will teud to make the administration of justice more satisfac- tory if the selection be made from the returns made by the coun- cil but I think again, on the other hand, that the exercise of any tight of appointment by the Crown ou^ht to be paramount. tor instance, last year I strongly objected to the power given to the revising barristers in the division of towns into wards. I find that I was correct; inconvenience has arisen—an appeal has been made to the King in Council against the divisions which have been made by some barristers. The King in Coun- cil, finding the arrangements were inconvenient, made an order for alteration but the revising barrister, when it was sent down to him, treated it with disrespect, The authority of the King in Council was set at nought. I think, therefore, that where the authority of the Crown was introduced at all-and 1 think it should be introduced in a matter of this importance— there should be a power in the Crown, supposing the town council not to recommend any persons whom the Lord Lieu- tenant might appoint, thut the Crown or the Lord Lieutenant should ultimately have the power to select proper persons. I think that this power will hardly be exercised unless under very extraordinary circumstances, that the six persons selected by the town council should, for some obvious reasons, be unfit for the appointment. (Loud cheers.) These are the main alter- ations in this bill from the English Act, and the bill of last ses sion, They are not of great importance—they are merely such alterations as must take place when you have to adopt a hill in another pait of the country. (Hear.) But, sir, there ¡He others connected with this subject to which I think it necessary now to pioceed, and upon which Parliament will ultimately have to decide. I have proposed this bill as a remedy for the civil grievances suffered by the people of Ireland, with respect to their municipal corporations. I have proposed it as a bill, which, in point of principle, meets with no objection, and which is only met by the objection which I stated before—that in spite of the Act of Union and in spile of the Act of Eman- cipation, the Roman Catholics were still placed on an inferior footing. Sir, I feel it necessary on this occasion, especially after the statements that have been made, and some resolutions that have been entered into—I feel it necessary to state the grounds on which the government in Ireland has proceeded, and, sir, I think it right to state that I consider this a question conclusive as regards the present administration. (Loud cries of hear.) Sir, I am sensible of the gieat inconvenience of bringing forward bills, year after year, and suffering them to be defeated. (Hear, hear.) I think it right—we consider it right- that Parliament and the country should have full time to consider the nature of the government of Ireland, and the nature of the proposition we now make; but I do not think that the government could permanently go on and be entitled to the confidence of this house, which has not hitherto been with- held from it (hear, hear); it would not, 1 say, sir, be entitled lo that confidence, if it remained suffering principles to be adopted as to Ireland, against which we have decided, and which we positively protest. (Loud cries of hear.) Sir, there can be no question more simpJe-there can be no question more direct to bring this argument to the test than the bill which I shall this night propose. Itisaquestionnotpropertyinter- fering with any religious prejudices—not capable of being tivisicd and perverted by a curioua display of figurea, bul .it is a plain question of right (hear, hear), whether the Irish people are fit to enjoy those rights which yeu declare arc conformable to the constitution of the country, or whether you will pro- scribe them as unfit for that enjoyment, and proclaim them as an inferior race among mankind. (Long-continued cheering.) The noble lord recurred to the conduct and opinion of :Fox in regard to Ireland. I maintain that Lord Mulgrave has acted upon the principles laid down by Mr. Fox. (Cheers.) He has endeavoured to do that which I must say, has not been fully done before (hear, heal,) to carry into every part of the Irish government the spirit of impartial justice. (Cheering.) AVheu I say it has not been done before, much as I admire the charac- ter of Lord Mulgrave, I am not going to pface him, or those who sit here, above any governors or ministers who governed Ireland before, but I will say that while Lord Mulgrave governed Ireland with the most upright, and impartial, and with the most generous intentions, he had this advantage, that his government has been one, and united. (Great cheering.) He had the ad- vantage of a Chief Secretary (hear and cheers), of an Attorney- General, all acting in complete accordance with his views; and I will venture to say, that although the office of Attorney- General has been held by three different gentlemen, since Lord Mulgrave assumed the government of Ireland (hear, hear, hear), that if the Earl of Haddington had succeeded at the Castle, not one of them would have remained to act under a Tory adminis- tration. (Cheers and laughter from the opposition.) Sir, this is a question of very considerable importance, because there is so much in the government of Ireland which depends on the details of these offices, that no Lord. Lieutenant with the best and fairest possible intentions can be aware of what are the pre- cise evils, and of the exact nature of the remedies to be applied. 1 will illustrate this by a reference to the conduct pursued bv Baron 0 Loghhn when Attorney-General for Ireland. lIe found that when jurors were called it was the custom to set men aside, not because they were prejudiced in the case, not because they were known 10 he connected with or favourable to the ac- cused, but because lliey were of the Homan Catholic religion, or, being Protestants, were of liberal political opinions. (Cheers ) ihatts proved by a letter of Mr. O'Lo-hlin, which I lately re- ceived, am| in which it is stated that the discontinuance and complete alteration of that system has been found to produce wict"tn°St ^,unc''c'a' effects, to be attended with no fewer con- JC ,anJ calculated lo ensure a confidence in the impartial of l"°ls,ra,on of 'he laws. (Hear.) Sir, I think this is question want nfCrj %r?a'esl impoilance, because, when we consider the jlllt r confidence that has existed, I will not say for .yeais, one tbe administration of justice in Ireland, iustK. think lhat when men stood in the courts of account3 f Pu,so."s ol respectable character set aside on oatiimt t!! r u. rel,8*°n or their opinions in politics, it was oatiimt t!! ■ r u. rel,8*°n or their opinions in politics, it was "Marat t. infer that they would not be justly treated, and that the verdict would not be that of twelve honest men, hut of twelve selected panizans. (Hear, hear.) Mr. O Loghlin, there fore, did a very great service to the administration of Justice by the rule laid down that those challenges were net to be peisevered in, and it was onll on account of persons being connected with or prejudiced in lavour of the patly that the thallenge of the Crtfwh was to be permitted. Sir. there was auother innovation introduced by Mr. (J'Loghlin^ which was of greater im^crl^.ncb, as affecting the Municipal Corporation?'. Everybody has heard of the faction fights wh;ch lijive prevailed in lieland—of the blood which hai been spilt, and the fierce and desperafe baltles that have taken place between one party and another; and it is represented, and I believe with truth, that there was a great indifference with respect to the prosecution of there oftences. There were magistrates, who actlttg upon the old maxim of di- vide et impuct, thought better to allow the disputants to as- suage theír hlóody dispositions upon those occasions, than to put 4 stop to them and use the power of the law for the'-V fre- vention. Sir, I must say that, in my v'.e&, nothing is more mistaken. There is nothing tnSre dreadful, nothing more ini- quitous, than aUtWllig those murderous scenes that were going on in country. There is nothing more likely to tend to the subversion of morality in that country, or to encourage the effu- sion of blooj. It had been Mr. Baron O'Loghiin's care to re- commend and ditect tftit there should be a solicitor employed at every Quaifei Sessions, who should send in an account of all cases iJT this kind. and direct the prosecution by the Crown of all those cases in which he thought he could obtain a convic- tion. The effect of this proceeding has, I believe, been most beneficial. (Cheers.) It has been seen that crimcs of this kind are not suffered with impunity, and there is now some reason to hope that the inveterate habits of the people are beginning to be sub- dued. Lorll.J. tiussell went into details, shewing the prudent j conduct of the Irish government, and cited the charges of the Irish judges to the grand juries, as proving the calm state of the country.—Will any one then say (continued the noble lord) that Ireland is in a singular state of disturbance, or that Lord Mulgrave has connived or winked at ciitne, when the coun- try is in such a state as this. I say nothing of any political bias of the judges. I do not suppose they have any, but I rely on their doing their duly to the country, and if it had not been so, it would have been made known. Wiih respect to the num- bers, I have received a return lately; it has been made out within Ihe last few days, and with as much accuracy as pos- sible. (Hear.) But, at the same time, it is right to say, there has been a difference in the manner of classing and defining I crime since the Police Act passed last year, therefore, it has been a matter of considerable difficulty to make any comparison between that and the former years. Still there are some of the crimes that will shew very well the state of the country, and the totals, I believe, may be depended upon-all of them of a deep, and some of them of an insurrectionary nature. The to. tals of the principal outrages during the last three months of 183'2, were 3065. That was the year before the Coercion Bill was brought in; and certainly at the close of that year there was a considerable increase of crime. But Jbe average of the years 1833, 1834, and 1835, was 2337, and the average of '1836 was 1431. With respect to the whole year, in 1832 only, there were offences 11,269. In 1833, 1834. and 1835, the average is 9919 and in 1836 the amount was 7836, being a diminution of 2092 from the previous years. This, be it ob- served contains the principal class of crimes. (Much cheering.) Sir, 1 have many other returns of a similar nature, more espe- cially shewiug that in the county of Tipperary there has been a very gieat decrease of atrocious crimes but as to crimes of another nature—1 mean riots and assaults—the number of per- sons named in indictments in 1835 was 795. By returns up to January, 1837, 1 find that the number named in indictments in 1636 was 344. (Cheers.) Sir, I wish to bring the atten- tion of the house to those facts which shew what is the lesult of a fair and impartial administration of the laws. (Cheers.) 1 now proceed to another subject, on which I do not mean to dwell at any length. It is a subject which was brought before the house last year, and which occupied much of your atten- tion sir, I mean the subject of Orange Associations and other secret societies in Ireland. It will be in the recollection of this house that these secret societies, which belonged exclu- sively to persons of one religion, were condemned on all sides, and that it was agreed that they must not be allowed to exist. It will be remembered that members of the Orange Society in this house unanimously declared, and I "Sincerely believe they have kept the promise, that they would cease to belong tothem. Sir, I consider whatever they may say now, with respect to the declaration that they then made, I must say tint this is conduct which does them the highest honour. By so doing, they took away from the parties composing those societies the be- lief that they were authorised by them to do so. (Cheering.) But although the superior members of the Oranges Lodtje* had done their duty and although the Lord Lieutenant had de- clared that it was his intention to forget the past, it does not appear there was any disposition in the master wardens to re- tire from those processions. On the contral y, there were on the 12th of July preparations made for a procession greater than had ever been known before. The Lord Lieutenant met this promptly-he sent out magistrates, and. took other means to have those processions met at every point; the consequence of which was, that 68 persons were convicted for having joined in those procession., and 428 more ordered to take their trial. With respect to this, the Lord Lieutenant thought it his duty to take means to ensure the suppression of these societies, and he fdt bound 10 show a determination to suppress these illegal processions. Sir, no person will doubt that in that course°he acted fightly and I believe the result has been that no attempt lias been made to form such processions since the last order of the government prohibiting them. I trust, theiefore, that the suppression of tire illegal societies of which I speak, may be lairly placed among the benefits resulting from the present go. vernment of Ireland, and that the secret associations which have been found upon evidence to be so injurious to the peace of the empire, and so capable of being perverted to such mis- chievous purposes will no longer exist, and that that which this house has declared to be illegal has been effectublly put down. Sir, there is another point with respect to the distribution of patronage on which rtuch observation has made. jTjJSi, Sir, will observe, that in Ae opinion of Mr. To*, whichr I havj stated, he said, that one of the objects which he wishw to see effected in the government of Ireland, was a fair distribution of the emoluments among all classes of the people. (Hear, hear). But what had taken place before the arrival of Lord Mulgrave could hardly be asserted. I hold in my hand the list of the sti- pendiary magistrates appointed under former governments, which states the religion of the different persons (hear, hear), and although the number is very considerable, yet there is ouly one professing the Homan Catholic failh. (Cheers, and cries of hear hear). Considering the number of Roman Catholics of character, and talent, and eminence in that country, I can hardly think that this was a fair distribution af patronage. (Hear, hear). I have also a list of the stipendiary magistrates appointed since Loid Mulgrave assumed the government of Ire- land, and it appears that out of the fifteen appointments that have taken place, six have been conferred upon Roman Catho- lics, and nine upon Protestants; no very unfair distribution (hear, hear), and certainly showing no wish to promote llo- man Catholics in pieference to Protestants, but showing tholt which 1 think it right to show, that a man because he is a Ro- man Catholic is not to be excluded from those offices to which by a solemn act of the Legislature, and which you have sanc- tioned, he is declared entitled to aspire. (Loud cheers). I liave also here a list of other appointments made by Lord Mulgrave, and staling the religion of the different persons so appointed, but I decline going into it, because I think on the whole that unless the question is raised it is oue which it is not desirable to enter upon. ("Hear, hear!" from Sir Robert Peel). The right honourable gentleman cheers, but I beg him to recollect that this was one of the charges brought against Lord Mulgrave's government. It was one ol those charges which are put forth before the public,jand which are resorted to with she view of poisoning the public mind. (Cheers). When Mr. Fox staled what consessiuns he wished to be mltde in Ireland- which included an equality, that is, equal rights and an equal division and participation of emoluments-he said that these concessions would not give satisfaction to at). Who then," he asked, "would be dissatisfied by such concessions 1 Not the aristocracy fur I will not call it by so respectable a name. And is Ihat miserable monopolising minority (loud cheering) lo be put in the balance with the preservation of the empiie and the happiness of a whole people. (Cheering) 1" Now it is this miseiable monopolising minority (renewed cheering) to which the name was so justly affixed by Mr. Fox it is Ihe same miserable minorily which has not daled to bring for- ward any charge in Parliament against the present adminis- tration in Ireland, but which has met, and passed, certain reso- lutions containing charges highly criminatory of Lord Mulgrave. The Orangemen, with closed doors, all opposition shut out, and with orange streamers flying, pass damnatory resolutions against Loid Mutgrave but, though they say the government is pow- erless in the House of Lords, they will not bring a charge against the Irish government, even in the House of LOlds. They, the Orangemen, say they are persecuted !—that they suffer from a penal code. We know what a penal code is: we know how the Irish lost their estates by the effects of a penal code, which subjected them to every description of the severest,penalty; we kjiow that as one result of penal codes an Irish Roman Catholic formerly could not keep a good horse without its being subject to be taken from him by any Protestant who happened to take a fancy to il. (Hear, hear.) We know what a penal code is when it is presented to us in these practical shapes. But as to this undefined and imaginary penal code, I know not what to make of it. (Hear, hear.) It seems to me to resemble nothin" so much as the gentleman who, in a letter to the Spectator, gives an account of his having read all the best medical books, and of the effect which they had oil him: who slates that having read all the accounts of asthma, he became for three weeks de- cidedly asthmatic (taughter) that then having read a good treatise on the gout, he became afllicted with all the symptoms of the gout, except, indeed, the pain. (Great laughter.) In the same way, sir, it appears to me that the parties in question have been reading a treatise on the penal code which in former times was inflicted on the Roman Catholics of Ireland, and imagine themselves suffeiing under all the symptoms, ex- cept the pain (loud cheers and laughter), except the practical sufferings, the practical grievances which the Roman Catholics fnrmeily had to complain of. And thus, in a country almost entirely undisturbed by crime, and rapidly improving in condi- tion, did these parlies come before the public with their dismal tale of imaginary malady. It seems as if they are determined to permit nothing to console them for their loss of exclusive power (Hear, hear!) They have made up their minds to he miserable, reminding one strongly of the hnes of an eminent living author— "Go, you may call it madnc5S, folly. "Yon" shall not chase my grief away There's such a charm in melancholy I would not, if I could be gay.l(Grcat laughter.) Sir, (said Lord John Russell), 1 repudiate altogether the as- sumptions advanced by this knot of persons assembled in a room in Dublin (late Orange meeting.) I say that his Majesty may allst to his Parliament (cheers)-I say he may (rust to his Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland (great cheeiing), and to his faith- ful subjects in that country. I say that their zeal, their affec- tion, and their loyally, will preserve Ireland for his Majesty and his successors on the throne, even though those gentlemen, in meenng assembled, give themselves no further trouble in the mailer. (Great laughter and cheering.) Thete is one thing more in these resolutions to which I shall now come, and it is connected with the state of Ireland as differing from the state of this country and of Scotland. This was the resolution which complains lhat a body, styling itself 'The General Associa- tion of ireland. has for some time held, and now publicly holds its meetings in Dublin, and is actively and seditiously engaged in exciting and organising the people of this country, for the purpose of resisting the just prerogative of the Crown, for the spoliation of the Established Church, and severing the union between Great Britain and Ireland and that stich proceedings are connived aI, and wholly unrestrained by. his Majesty's jovernmenl in Ireland." Now, sir, 1 must own that if I were ,'(0 hear there was a Genertl- Association of Scotchmen met in Edinburgh, and that their meetings too!; placfe rfom week lo week, and that lliey collected vaiious sums of money from week to r*»'*eV, ami entered into various resolutions from time to time with respect to the government of that country, I confess that I should hear "it with great regret; but I should always ask what was the cause of that association (cheers)? and so I say with respect to Ireknd. Sir, I veiy much regret that in Dublin, as I should that in Edinburgh, an association should exist of the nature alluded to but 1 am obliged to inquire into its causes, and when I ask for those causes, I find, as the forcible phrase of Lord Mulgraveexpressedit, tnatitisthespawnofyourown wrong. The Poble lord terminated an admirable speech by recommend ing the measure or municipal reform. I think, sir, it was said of a great cliatacter of antiquity, That which Themistocles has proposed would be very profitable to Athens, but it would be very unjust." ,Notv, I propose te. you a treasure which will be eminently ^fitibie. It will be profitable in giving to you the hearts and affections of the people of Ireland it will be profit- able to you in promoting the riches and welfare of the towns; it will be protitjble to you in lending to produce greater order, a belter administration of the law, and a more general conti. dence ill your government. But while it has all these advan- tages of profit, while it has all these motives of expediency, I espescially recommend it to the house—I especially recommend it to Parliament—on this ground, that 1 believe it to he just. [Die noble lord resumed his seat amidst great cheering.] Mr. Sergeant Jackson thought the noble lord had taken very new ground on this occasion. In all Plevious discussions of this question, it had never occurred to any member of either house of Parliament to discuss this question upon the ground which the noble lord had taken. (Hear, hear!) He meant his argument that the rejection of the Municipal Bill was an 10- fraction of the Act of Union, and a depatture from the spirit in wnich the Emancipation Act was passed. He denied that there was any grain of solid argument in either of these state- ments. (Hear, hear.) Did the noble lord mean to say that the principle of the Union was that there should be no difference between the government of the two countries or its laws. (Hear, hear!) If he had read the A ct of Union he would have seen, by the 8tll section of that act, that the laws of Ireland, as they existed befoie the Union, should continue. Look at the White Boy Act. Was there any necessity for anything like that existing in England? (Hear, hear!) What was the spirit of the Act of Emancipation ? Could the noble lord put his finger on any part of that act which rendered it obligatory to give to Ireland municipal reform? (Cheers, and cries of Hear, hear!") Perhaps the noble lord argued that the spirit of the Emancipation Bill, and not the letter rendered it neces- sary. In his (Sergeant Jackson's) opinion, the spirit and the letter of the act were in direct opposition to it. The noble lord spoke of Lord Mulgrave's desire to do impartial justice, and of innovations in the administration of the law, and he referred to three gentlemen who filled the office of attorney-general in that country. He did not deny'their respectability, but there were others, there was his friend Mr. Blackburn or Mr. Edward Pennefather, whose superiors in their profession were not to be found— Lord John Russell begged to be allowed to set himself right with the honourable and learned gentleman. lie did not mean in any way to deny that those gentlemen were as eminent and respectable as any persons could be. What he said was, that it was useful to have unity in the government, and that per- sons acting in the government should be animated by the same views of policy. He meant that the pesons to whom he re- ferred were actuated by the same views of policy, whether right or wrong. (Hear, hear). Mr. Sei-geant Jackson did not misapprehend the noble lord. The noble lord could not venture to say that Mr. Blackburne or Mr. Edward l'ennefalher would for a moment hold office under Lord Mulgrave's government, disgraced and degraded as it was. (Hear, hear). Let the house examine these innova- tions. The first was made by Mr. O'Loghlen, when he was Attorney-General for Ireland. The noble lord panegyrised the innovations j hut he would tell the noble lord that they had produced consequences the most disastrous. Reference had been made to the putting by," as it was called, of jurors on the part of the Crown without assigning any cause. He held J1 to be a calumny on the respectable individuals who from time to time had filled the important office of Attorney-General in Ireland, and who were connected with the criminal jurispru- dence of that country, to say that in the performance of their duties they had been actuated by a difference in religious per- suasions to put by men from serving as jurors. He denied that men were put by from serving as jurors merely because they were Roman Catholics. Neither did he believe it had been ever the piactice at any period to put by men offering them- selves as jurors because of their political opinions. (Cries of Oh, oh"). He did not believe it. (Opposition cheers, and renewed cries of Oh from the ministerial benches). The learned sergeant then proceeded at considerable length to ar- raign the conduct of the Irish government, in reference to of- ficial appointments and general policy and in the course of an eloquent and empassioned speech, delivered, as the repoiler says, with much vehemence of manner and energy of action, Mr. O'Connell was severely handled. After denouncing the conduct of the hon. and learned member for Kilkenny, and the proceedings of the National Association of Dublin, the hon. and learned sergeant sat down amidst loud and protracted cheering fromtheoppositionbenches. Mr. O'Connell, after the cheering had subsided, said, Sir, I concur in the pleasure these cheers manifest to be entertained by the hon. gentlemen at the other side at the speech we have j'lst heard from the hon. and learned sergeant. I must say I never heard any speech with more complete delight. (Hear, hear). As to the personal attack on myself, that is perfectly beneath my dignity to notice. (Oh oh !). h certainly docs not alloy the satisfaction with which I listened to the rest of the discourse. I have not arrived at my present time of life without learning to value the abuse of some whose praise would be censure indeed. At) I ask the honourable and learned ser- geant is never to praise me let him do with me what else he pleases. (A laugh). The satisfaction which 1 derive from the speech of tbe houourable and learned sergeant is founded u^ion two greuads Bbtly, thitt if b# -lws any inateijal ofi candour about him, he has taken up a course fiom which he cannot with any dignity retire and secondly, that he has avow- edly displayed himself as the organ lor the opposition of bis Majesty's Ministers. (Hear, hear). There is no disguise now, they have made him their champion they have bound their cause with his, and it is impossible that the right honourable baronet himself can be more explicit upon the coutse they pio- pose to adopt than he has been. The hon. and learned gent, defended the Irish government and the National Association at considerable length, and got into a personal dispute with Mr. Shaw, who followed up the attack on the Irish government and IMr. O'Connell, which Sergeant Jackson had commenced. Mr. Roebllck expressed his disapprobation of the sharp lan- gunge used in the course of the debate, which he thought was but a waste of time. What, he would ask, was the vatueofi all that they had heard to-night? They had had four long I mortal hours entirely wasted. (Six). i\o he would not say six, because some particular speeches or parts of speeches that he had hcaid did not fall under the same category. He, how- ever, wanted to know the value of the argument that had been addressed to the house? He wished to strip it from all ex- traneous adjuncts—from all rhetorical flourishes—which how- ever well they might be suited to other audiences, were not proper to be recognised by such an assembly as this. (Hear, hear). The honourable and learned sergeant had accused the honourable and learned member for Kilkenny of having used certain expressions, at various times, of a very violent nature, and therefore that house was to legislate for Ireland in a man- ner different from what it had for any other part of the empire. The argument of the learned sergeant was, that because the honourable and learned member for Kilkenny had been violent, rude, coarse, in the epithets he had employed in his language, they were therefore to deny to the people of Ireland (loud cheers) those jiunicipal rights which they had alieady given to Engtandandto Scotland. The O'Connor Don was but very imperfectly heard. He be- lieved that no person was allowed to have access to the Pro- testant meeting unless lie previously signed a certificate de- claring that he assented generally to the views of the noble lords by whom it was convened. Willi respect to the National Association, to which so much allusion had been made in the course of the debate of that evening, he fairly admitted that he regretted its existence. (Hear). He regretted it on account of the cause that created it, and of the circumstance that ap- peared to him to render its existence actually necessary. (Hear, hear, heat). It was to be regretted that the people of Ireland, whenever they sought a redress of grievances, were compelled to address themselves, not to a sense of right, but to some ap- prehension of danger. (Hear). On the motion of Mr. Brotherton the debate was adjourned. The other orders of the day we.e then dispoed of, and the house adjourned at a quarter past twelve. WKDNKSDAV, Ti n. 8.—-Captain Barday presented a petition against the Bristol and Glouccrtershire Railway Dill, as being contrary to the standing orders of the house. EDUCATION 1:>1 \V A L.I-.S. Sir L. l'arru gave notice that at an early dav he would call the attention of the house to the education of the people of the Principality of Wales in the English language, with the view to cement the union between, the two couuiries, and to assirni,. late the habits and customs of the people by superaddin" the English to the ancient British language. ML'NICHPAI. CORPORATIONS ( I R1 I. A N T> ) Mr. H. lJ. Browne considered the question before the house, to be whether or not the Irish people were to be considered liiitish subjects—whether or not that country was inferior to England, and whether or not insult and degradation should continue 10 be heaped upon her.— Mr. It'. Rochc supported the measure. Mr. I.uca* considered that the real question was, whether the measure wascatcufated to do good or evil to Ireland, lie (Mr. Lucas) thought it would raise ihe ministerial party, and lower his (Ihe Conservative): he would oppose the bill. 111, llardy opposed the measure he thought Ireland unfit to receive the charge of Municipal Corporations. Mr. II. G rattan said they must either grant Corporate Re- (orm, or they, in fact, repealed the acts of ullion ;In,1 ('n.;allcipa- tion, which had repealed disqualifications. (Ileear, hear.) If they abrogated corporations altogether, they would place Ire- laud in a worse position than it had been in since its connection with England for Henry the Second had gone over to Ireland, and had given the people corporations, saying it was lor the purpose of placing them on the same footing with the people of England. (Hear.) Mr. Graltan, in the course of his speech, said that the operations of the association of Ireland would take away 15 votes tiom the Conservatives at the next election in- deed, he had little doubt that the majority of the house would be increased 10 130. Mr. Lejrop opposed the motion, in a clever speech he at- tacked the executive govenrment of Lord Mulgrave, and declared it as his opinion that the Irish Association was illegal. Mr. IVaklep supported the motion, and in the course of his speech inquiied what was meant by the word descuption, as ap- plied to Irishmen? He supposed the hon. member lor Bradford would admit that in physical constitution, and in a sense of moral obligations, they wore some resemblance to their fellow- su >jeets iu England and Scotland, that they had some claim to be classed among the animal creation, that the babes in that country sucked from their mothers' breasts the means of exist- ent-u'.ar^ ''lat belonged to the class mammalia. cond! r St"? I,e s,lonl<1 have no objection lo the bill if the Air IV* I lhat of ,he English and Scoteh. invective a "Pl>os e hill in a long speech, combining much nvcctive against ,he ruhng party in I.eland. & dcrahle a speech of very consi- siVt bodv of |wk\ i f* 'VVly ('s"Pl,0"ed by a very extcn- irish government acts and general policy of tne mercy was nrnnl'rl He ,sho.ulJd think that the prerogative of commission of »tf e*'ended, that the appointments to the S? Zre r,e ,were lhat the le?al pro- meritoiiou<^ITPn!S°.Und PoUc*. a»d conferied upon P,V«4? ° m ge"on,en. as in the cases of Mr. Cassidy and Air.: Pigott. Ihe head and tront of our offending.isthis, that we Itave preferred our frietirls and supporters lo our avowed adver varies, our open villtfiers, and our insidious uiidcrtniners. (Im- mense cheering.) Such has been hitherto the policy of Hail Mulgrave; and in spite of all that shall be alleged or charged against us, such it will continue.—Renewed checrs.) Sir James Graham opposed th.) bill. Sir James declared _himsc.it dissatisfied with the explanations made by Lord Mor- -peth. the Irish Chief Secretary, with regard to the conduct 01 Lord Mulgrave, and dwelt with mtich hostility against the Association. < Sir J. C./JoblIOHse thought, in reference to the conduct o) Sir James Graham, that a man may act magnanimously with- out carrying into his new pdsitioti, Ii. perpetual bitterness against his ancierrt Allies—Ire asked Sir James, if we (the government) do not pass the bill, do they intend to govern Ire- land upon the other principle I (Hear, arid loud cheers from the ministeria membersl. Docs the right hon. gentleman, sup- posing the happy day should arrive in which we should be re, hevedof our thankless servitude there—does he intend to go vern Ireland with Orange handkerchiefs and "the Kentish fire" (long continued citcerihg) and tins, too, with the assis- tance of a very respectable nobleiiiaii acting cs fugleman? (Cheers and laughter.) Does the right hon. gentleman mean to do ihis ? I tlunk that the King's government, and thi country too, will consider they have a right to ask the question. andtohaveadecidedanswertoit. (Hear, hear.) The ques tion to be decided to-night is this: shall this country be go- verned by a majority of the House of Lords against a majority of the House of Commons, or shall it be governed by a majo. rity of the House of Commons against a majority of the House ol Lo.ds ? (Cheers). He concluded by defy ing Sir Robert Peel to undertake the government of the country. Sir Robert Peel was surprised that Lord John Russell, in- stead of taking a comprehensive view of the whole state of Ire- land, fixed on aresolution (fouiteen of the Orange resolutions) passed at a meeting convened by a number of gentlemen, who thought that they could exercise with freedom and in safety the humble right which every British subject claims of petitioning Parliament. (Cheers.) The right hon. bart. met the arguments adduced in favour of the introduction of Municipal Reform in Ireland, and eloquently attacked the national association. 1 know many among those who clamour the loudest about justice and equal laws aie the mos.t forward to charge us with insulting the people of Ireland, and the most active in crying out for re- dress—who shrink within themselveswhen poor-laws for Ireland are the subject of discussion. With respect to the liberation of prisoners by the Lord-Lieutenant, Sir Robert Peel said, this is the only instance that 1 know of in which mercy was extended to persons confined for offences against the law on the visit of a Chief Governor. Oh! yes, there is one other instance that occurs to my mind, but it is of a poetical nature. It is recorded in a farce (cheers and laughter)—a farce known, I believe, by the name of Tom Thumb. (Immense laughter.) If I recollect right and I refer to the classical authority of the hon. gentleman opposite, the hiiig and Lord Grizzle appear upon the stage. (Roars of laughter.) The King says, liebellion is dead—I'll go to breakfast." (Cheers and laughter.) And to illustrate the fact he says further—" Open the prisons—turn the captives out (cheers and laughter) and let our treasurer advance one guined pay their several debts." (Cheers and tremendous laughter.) ihe right hon. gentleman opposite asks me what I mean to fII<t with the municipal question in Ireland when I come into omce (Hear, hear.) Now he is in office, and let me ask him, in re- turn, what he means to do with the church question in Ireland ? I am bound to say that, when I see an association established rnlreland arrayed against the Established Church. The right hon. bart. concluded by observing that Mr. Fox had said that those who mistook paper regulations for practical government would find great difficulty in a country distracted by religious dissensions and under the pretence of equal laws they would not give equal justice, which it was their duty to secure to the minority as well as to the majority. (Cheering.) Lord John Rnssell ably replied. Had the bill proposed the year before last been passed, it would, ere this, have become 'he "cheap defence" of tbe Church of Ireland. That bill, however, was rejected, and all he could now say was, that he viewed wilh great pain the condition into which the Church of Ireland had been brought in consequence of that lejection, so •ar as regarded those to whom the revenues were applicable. II would be, hereafter, his earnest study, as it was now his earnesl wish, to induce parliament to come to some decision upon the subject. He did not therefore wish, or expect to be able, to propose any measure upon the subject early in the session However, no personal feeling of his should stand in the way ot a settlement of that or of any other question. Leave was then given to bring in the bill, which was read a fust time, and ordered to be read a second time on Friday week. J'OOU I.AWS FOIt 1REMKD. Lord J. Resell postponed to Monday next the question of Poor-laws for Ireland. It stood for Thursday.—Adjourned.