The South Wales Star

OPPOSITION TO THE SCHEMES. The Barry Dock and Railways Act (1888) Amendment Bill, entered upon the Committee jage on Thursday, the 19th inst., before a House of Lords Committee. This Bill, the object of which is to explain Section 23 of the Barry Dock and Railways Act, 1888," came on Thursday before a Committee of the House of Lords, of which Lord Balfour of Burleigh is chairman. Mr Pember, Q.C., Mr C. A. Cripps, Q.C., and Mr Joseph Shaw appeared for the promoters, and Mr Pope, Q.C., Mr Littler, Q.C., and Mr Balfour Brown, Q.C., represented the Taff Vale Railway Company. Mr Pember, Q.C., in opening the case for the promoters, said that the point at issue was a somewhat intricate and very special one. He quoted clauses from the Barry Dock and Railways Act, 1888, from which it appeared that the Barry Railway Company in 1888 applied to Parliament for an Act authorising them to exercise running powers over the portions of the Taff Vale Railway situated to the northward of the junction of the company's railway authorised by the Barry Dock and Railways Act. 1884. The Barry Dock and Railways Act, 1888, was passed in pursuance of the said Bill, and Clause 23 provided that the Taff Vale Railway Company should punctually and regularly afford all reasonable facilities for goods and mineral traffic destined for or coming from the undertaking of the Barry company from or to Treforest, or any pUce north- "ward thereof at rates per mile not greater than the lowest rate which should for the time being be charged by the Taff Vale Railway Company for like traffic to or from the docks at Cardiff, Penarth, or Barry, and should deliver all such traffic into and take the same from the company's sidings as regarded all traffic coming from or destined for Hafod, or any place westward thereof at Hafod, and as regarded other traffic at Treforest, without any terminal or other charge in respect thereof, but with such bonus, if any, in respect of traffic exchanged at Hafod as, in default of agreement between the Taff Vale Railway company and the Barry Company, should be from time to time determined on the application of either of them by the Railway Commissioners, sitting as arbitrators, having regard to all the circumstances of the case. The Act now being promoted, therefore, proposed that the obligations imposed OR the Taff Vale Railway Company under Section 23, to forward and afford reasonable facilities for goods and traffic at rates and in manner therein specified, should be deemed to be -obligations for the benefit of the public as well as for the benefit of the Barry Company. He went on to point out that in passing the Barry Dock and Railways Act Parliament intended to give something for the benefit of the public. Barry was essentially a traders' line, and, therefore, the traders should not be deprived of the provisions of this section. Mr J. Wolfe Barry, consulting engineer to the Barry Railway Company, stated that in both Houses evidence had been given by freighters in favour of running powers, and in substitution for them the facilities given by Clause 23 were granted for the protection of the freighter. Cross-examined by Mr Pope, Q.C., witness expressed doubts whether the Barry Company could enforce the section. Mr Joseph Davis. secretary of the South Wales Coal Freighters' Protection Association, said he had been instructed by the association, which was very representative. The feeling of the trade in the district was very strongly in favour of the public having the right to enforce the section of the Act of Parliament. Mr Pope, Q.C.: I should be very much surprised if it was not. Mr J. B. Ferrier, chairman of the Cardiff Chamber of Commerce, gave similar evidence. Replying to Mr Pope, witness said he gave evidence in 1888, but the question was not raised then. Mr Shaw said he had a number of witnesses who could testify to the same effect, but he did not think it necessary to trouble the committee further by calling them. Mr Inskip, formerly chairman of the Taff Vale Railway Company, but at present a solicitor practising at Bristol, said he had a clear recollec- tion of the negotiations which took place in 1888, and it was clearly understood that the Barry Com- pany were to charge the same rate irrespective of what the Taff Company charged. Mr Pope, addressing the committee for the Taff Company, said the real and substantial question was, not what was the supposed operation of the clause in the minds of the freighters who were not parties to it at the time, but was really whether it was expedient in the public interest that the explanation of Clause 23 should now be made. The clause was carefully discussed and regularly agreed to. and had been decided to be a clause for the protection of the company that was promoting the Bill and that was seeking access to traffic which had hitherto been entirely in the hands of the Taff. The suggestion really was that when a company came aggressively for the purpose of obtaining access to a traffic hitherto in the hands of one company, that when provisions were inserted giving that company the means of running powers, or-what was then thought to be equal to running powers- access to the traffic, that in all such cases it ought to be held that the clause was in the public interest, to be for the benefit of each individual freighter, and enforceable by him, and not by the parties who were really the parties to the clause. If their lordships gave the trader the power asked for, they would introduce a new element, new parties, and a new penalty, and the clause would have to be re-constructed and made Applicable all round. Mr Pember, Q.C., replied for the promoters, and pointed out that Lord Esher, the Master of the Rolls, had decided that the Taff Company had got the right at the present time to charge their maxi- mum rates to the trader unless there was some- thing in the clause to cut that right down, and he added there was nothing in the clause to cut the right down, and that. therefore, they were entitled to charge a maximum rate. Lord Justice Bowen concurred in that judgment. Therefore, the public were being charged the maxim nm. In reply to Lord Percy, a member of the com- mittee-Mr Pember—said he did not ask that the clause should be retrospective, and if there was any doubt he was willing to insert the word henceforth." After deliberating in private for a few minutes, Lord Balfour said the committee was of opinion that the Bill should proceed, subject to anything which the opponents might have to say as to the wording of the clause. Were the opponents pre- pared to insert the clause ? Mr Balfour Brown No, my lord I will advise my clients not to. The Chairman said the committee would insert the word" henceforth." The committee then adjourned, it being under- stood that the Barry Railway Bill should be taken this (Friday) morning. THE OPPOSITION. Nine petitioners have lodged petitions praying to be heard against the Bill promoted by the Barry Railway Company. The Glamorgan County Council say that the company, although paying exceptionally good dividends, have hitherto failed to provide any ac- commodation for carrying passengers on the principal line from Barry to Hafod, although they have frequently promised to do so. As the com- pany do not carry passengers on their principal line. and their railway affords no accommodation to those whose property has been taken, or even to those employed in industrial pursuits in the dis- trict. they contend that the public and local ad- vantages have not yet been realised- They, there- fore submit that the present Bill should not be sanctioned. The Corporation of Cardiff state that the effect I of the provisions of the Bill, so far as it is proposed to acquire lands near the southern end of the Riverside branch of the Great Western Railway, will be to stop up Dumballs-road, to which they strongly object. The petition of the Marquis of Bute and the trustees of the late marquis, and that of the Glamorgan Canal Navigation, are directed in op- position to the proposed acquisition of the land scheduled by the company in the parish of St. Mary the Virgin. The Great Western Colliery Company say that it is proposed to acquire portions of their property for the construction of this railway. They have, they say, expended large sums of money upon their collieries, and equipped them with costly plant and machinery, and as the only traffic to be served by the proposed railway would be that of the Cymmer Colliery, they strongly object to their property being taken compulsorily for the private purposes of another colliery company. The petition of the Lewis Merthyr Navigation Colliery Company is also directed in opposition to the railway to the Cymmer Colliery. They believe that the railway has been projected in consequence of disputes between the Barry Com- pany and the Taff Vale Company, and between the Taff Vale Company and the proprietors of the Cymmer Colliery. They, therefore, submit that as no public benefit will be served, their property ought not to be taken for the private advantage of a competing colliery company. The Taff Vale Railway Company's petition alleges that the projected railway to the Cymmer Colliery is intended only to abstract traffic which they now deliver to the Barry Company at Hafod Junction. The Ystradyfodwg Local Board seek protection against the construction of the railway to the Cymmer Colliery near to the highway from Hafod to the Britannia level crossing, as the roadway is only 24 feet in width, which it is in contemplation to widen to 36 feet. It is, therefore, essential that the railway should be constructed, as far as practicable, from the road, in order to allow of its being widened, and also to diminish risk and danger to those riding and driving along the road. A petition from the owners and masters of coasting and trading vessels and pilots trading in the Bristol Channel, which bears the signatures of seven pages of names printed in double column, raises the same points as those dealt with in the Board of Trade report upon this Bill. The petitioners say that they view with the greatest alarm the destruction of Barry Harbour as an anchorage ground and place of shelter. The harbour, they assert, has already suffered by the operations of the company, and they humbly submit that if any alteration is needed in the enactments relating thereto it should be in the direction of strengthening rather than of weaken- ing them. OPENING OF THE HEARING. The above Bills came on Friday before a com- mittee of the House of Lords, of which Lord Balfour of Burleigh is chairman. Mr Cripps, Q.C., in opening the case for the promoters, proceeded to explain the provisions of the measures. The Chairman Is this road private property ? Could Lord Bute shut it up if he liked ? Mr Cripps Yes I am told so. Mr Pembroke Stephens Lord Bute does not for one moment say it is a private road. Mr J. Wolfe Barry, consulting engineer of the Barry Company, examined by Mr Cripps, Q.C., said they had three companies that were going to use the Clarence-road station at Cardiff, the Great Western, the Taff Vale, and the Barry Railway Companies, both for goods and passengers, and the land was so restricted on the opposite side of the Glamorganshire Canal that it was impossible to extend the station in that direction. Lord Bute had tied the Great Western Company down very tightly on that side therefore, he thought in the public interests that they ought to have the powers they sought in this Bill. Cross-examined by Mr Pember, Q.C. Witness said that the station would be their main station between Barry and Cardiff, and would be their terminal station in Cardiff. He did not know that the Taff Vale Railway were petitioning against the Bill, but the Grea6 Western were very much in favour of the extension. The station would be built by the Great Western Company, the Barry Company paying interest on the expenditure. They had always been most anxious to come to an amicable arrangement with Lord Bute, but they had not sueceeded. and he (witness) did not think it was unreasonable to take his lordship's land and pay for it. By Mr Pembroke Stephens Dumballs-road at either end communicated with roads which were provided by the corporation, and in that direction was the main access to the town. They had no desire to shirk their obligations in the matter, and were perfectly willing to meet all claims, and they had no desire but to facilitate the rights of the public in every way. By Mr B. F. Williams They proposed to take a portion of the land which was the property of the Glamorganshire Canal Company. If that land was valuable they were prepared to pay for it. Mr Inglis, engineer-in-chief to the Great Western Railway Company, examined by Mr Cripps, said that he had discussed the plan sub- mitted with Mr Barry, and speaking on behalf ) of the Great Western Railway Company, who had to carry out the station proposed, he thought that any curtailment of the plan would not only cramp the accommodation, but it would interfere with the working. Mr Richard Evans, general manager of the Barry Company, said he thought the accommoda- tion described by Mr Barry to be necessary for the Barrv traffic in connection with that of the Great Western. Witnesses for Lord Bute wer3 then called. Mr Hurman, formerly traffic manager of the Taff Vale Railway, said he saw no necessity for the further acquisition of land by the Barry Com- pany at the point in question. He had prepared a plan showing ample accommodation for the pur- poses of the traffic likely to arise. The plan was handed in, but Mr Shaw objected to it as an alternative scheme, and the committee upheld the objection. Witness went on to say that he could not see that there was any probability of a large goods traffic here. There was a large import into Cardiff, but little into Barry, although it might grow at the latter place. By Mr Shaw Witness thought it would be many many years before Barry arrived at the posi- tion of a merchandise import town. Mr Shaw I said nothing about imports. Hasn't Barry enormously increased within the past few years ? Witness Yes it has. Mr Wm. Clarke. M.I.C.E., examined by Mr Bidder, said that he acted as engineer to the Glamorganshire Canal Company in 1881, and prepared plans for the widening and deepening of the canal, and those works extended along the land that was now sought to be taken by the Barry Company. It was important for the traffic in connection with the canal that the land should be reserved for the purpose of the canal traffic. If the Bill passed, and the railway acquired the land, then, in no future year would they be able to extend or develop the canal in accordance with the increase of traffic. He saw no ground whatever for the railway acquiring the land. Mr Edward Corbett, engineer on the Marquess of Bute's Cardiff Estates, examined by Mr Bidder, said that so far as the Marquess of Bute was con- cerned, he was quite willing to give certain land for the purposes of the new road. if they could get the consent of the Patent Fuel Works, which would be affected, and the suggestion was that the railway company should buy the lessees of the fuel works out, and clear the buildings away, thus acquiring the land now belonging to the fuel works on the east side of the railway. Mr Cripps Taking Lord Bute's interests, they are in this matter one of money only ? Witness Ultimately, I suppose it is. Mr Cripps And why does he object to this Bill if he will be fully compensated ? Witness Because, as he is practically the owner of the canal. he does not consider that he would be compensated for the loss of the canal traffic. Mr Cripps Suppose I were to say on behalf of 1 Barry that, as regards any loss of traffic, he should i be compensated. ] Witness I am afraid Lord Bute would not run J the risk of an arbitration on such a point. 1 By Mr Bidder The railway line has continually < grown as we have seemed inclined to give way. i Mr Llewellyn, traffic manager to the canal company, examined by Mr Williams, testified to the importance of the land sought to be acquired by the railway to the canal company, and said that the land at present was not sufficient for the purposes of the company. Mr Bidder, Q.C., said that, on behalf of the Glamorganshire Canal Company, he would not trouble their lordships with any further evidence. His position was this-tbe preservation of land sufficient for the development of the traffic of the canal. Mr Pembroke Stephens, for the Cardiff Corpora- tion, described this scheme as a struggle for inches on the part of different interests, in whose minds, perhaps, the road was the last thing. The pro- posals now made, unless safeguarded, would be mischievous to Cardiff. The Chairman Your point is ito get a good road-as good as that of 1891 ? Mr Pembroke Stephens Yes. The Chairman That and the question of the water pipes is your case ? Mr Stephens Yes. As to the water pipes, I am content to take what the Barry Company said -that they ought to be the subject of a proper clause. Therefore, I do not labour that. The Chairman Then you need not call witnesses at this stage. If it is necessary to do.;so on clauses, you may. Mr Stephens Very well. Mr Cripps having replied on behalf of the pro- moters, the room was then cleared. On the re- admission of the public in a few minutes, The Chairman said the Committee were of opinion that a case had not been made out for taking the whole of the land proposed by the company, but they would, with proper definition, authorise the railway company to take a sufficient part to make the road which was sanctioned, and, of course, take into their possession all the north- west of that road. Mr Cripps, Q.C.: That will be a matter of clause. The Chairman You must draw up a definition amongst you. After taking evidence in reference to the rail- way from Porth to Hafod, the Committee adjourned until Monday. MONDAY'S HEARING. Mr Tom John, secretary of the Rhondda Chamber of Trade, and editor of the Glamorgan Free Press, examined by Mr Shaw, said that his chamber, as representing the manufacturing and commercial interests of the district, had considered the Bill, and had passed a resolution heartily sup- porting the measure with regard to the line from Hafod to Porth. The association had come to the conclusion that the line proposed would be a great public advantage. Mr James Miles, commercial agent to the National Collieries, also supported the proposed line. Mr Balfour Browne, Q.C.: Would you be sur- prised to hear that 60 per cent. of the passengers travel upwards North, and that only 9 per cent. move towards Cardiff ? Witness I would be surprised to hear that. By Mr Williams Several efforts have been made to get the Barry Company to extend their line, but without success. By Mr Inskip (for the Great Western Colliery Company): Witness did not represent his principals before the committee. Mr Inskip: Would not you shrink from supporting any Bill that would interfere with the water supply of the valley ? Witness I was not aware that this Bill did so. Mr Richard Evans, general manager of the Barry Railway Company, described Railway No. 1 (from Hafod to Porth), and explained that the object of it was to complete his company's connec- tion with the Rhondda Valley. Pressure had been brought to bear upon the company by the people in the valley to extend the line, and the present action of the company was an attempt to satisfy public demand. Mr Balfour Browne, Q.C. This particular railway ends in a field, does it not ?-Witness: There is not much grass there. (Laughter.) How much is this line to coet— £ 70,000, is it not ?—I think it is about that. Do you think that the traffic will pay interest on that ?—We hope to have some remuneration; but this is part of a complete scheme. We are asked to run passenger trains from Barry to the Rhondda Valley. We are making every prepara- tion to do so. The whole work is in the hands of the engineers at the present moment. Our physical position at Pontypridd is not capable of affording the terminus we require. Counsel: Yon have no station there i-We are going to have a station there. Take it from me, this is part of a passenger scheme, and we shall not consider that passenger scheme complete with- out this railway. Mr Wolfe Barry, consulting engineer to the Barry Company, examined by Mr Shaw, said there was a great demand for a passenger service from Porth to Hafod, and it would be a great con- venience to a large number of people. As a matter of fact, the coal traffic paid the Barry Company better than passenger traffic would, but- they desired to meet the demands of the public, which had been so continually urged on them. With regard to the objections against the Bill, it was not the intention of the promoters to interfere in any way with sewers, pipes, water-courses, or public works. There would be no great difficulty in meeting the objections of the Great Western Railway Company, and their differences, in his opinion, could be easily arranged. This was the case for Railway No. 1 (from Hafod to Porth). The room was cleared, and on the re-admission of the public, The Chairman said: The committee are of opinion that the clauses relative to this Railway No. 1 must be cut of the Bill. Mr Balfour-Browne (for the Taff Vale Railway): In the course of the cross-examination I threw out the suggestion that if there was any real desire to run passenger traffic in the interest of the public, they might run into our Hafod Station. I do not want to withdraw from that. The Taff Vale Com- pany say that if they want for passenger traffic alone to run into Hafod Station they may do so. The Chairman We made a note of what you said, but, of course, it lays no obligation upon you in this Bill. I do not know the relative positions of Hafod and Porth, Stations, but, undoubtedly, the question of passenger facilities did make some impression upon the mind of the committee. Mr Cripps, Q.C. (who came in from another committee-room), addressing their lordships, said I want to ask you a question in reference to the next portion of this Bill. I am not, at the present time, going to open Railway No. 2, but I understand that when Mr Evans was in the box, my friend, Mr Balfour-Browne, put to him a question as regards the Taff Vale giving accommodation for passenger traffic at Hafod or Porth. It would be a very important thing for the promoters to know whether that is to be taken as a condition of No. 1 being thrown out. The Chairman No I made no condition. Mr Balfour Browne renewed the offer in respect to Hafod Station after the decision of the committee was given, and I gave a gentle hint of what was in the mind of the committee but I think you had better wait and see it in print before you make any application. Mr Balfour -Browne I stick to my offer, but I go no further. The Chairman Parliamentary practice would not allow us to put any obligation of this kind upon the Taff Vale Railway Company. Mr Cripps I understand that the statement of my learned friend applied only to Havod ? Mr Balfour-Browne (laughingly) It did dis- tinctly. Mr Cripps. Not to Porth ? Mr Balfour-Browne Not to Porth. THE RAILWAY TO BARRY ISLAND. The Committee next proceeded to consider the proposal for Railway No. 2. This part of the Bill was opened for the promoters by Mr Pember, Q.C., who in respect to some previous proposals had repre- sented the Bute interest. He explained that the clause was one for a short line of 67 chains, or about three-quarters of a mile. to take passengers from the various systems generally to what was known as Barry Island, to which in the summer time very large numbers ef people resorted. The railway, he explained, would commence in the parish of Barry by a junction with the Barry Railway near the Barry Station, and would terminate in the parish of Sully near the junction of the roads known as Ivor-street and Plymouth- road on Barry Island. Proceeding to refer to the various objections which had been lodged against the sceme, he said he did not think that they would have been troubled at all about those were it not for this fact, that the making of that line involved the closing up of an inner portion of the creek known as Barry Harbour but the portion that they proposed to enclose was by far the most worthless of the lot. Clause 5 of the Bill empowered the Barry Company to construct a breakwater commencing at the western extremity of Barry Island near Yorke Rock, and extending thence over the foreshore in a west-by-nerth direction for a distance of about seven chains. In conclusion, Mr Pember agreed that there was no substantial opposition at all, and the opposition of Cardiff to Barry was, indeed, nothing less than natural. This was a question purely of merits, and one that was absolutely in the discretion of their lordships. Evidence in support of this part of the scheme was then taken, and the committee afterwards adjourned till the following morning. TUESDAY'S HEARING. The Committee proceeded on Tuesday to further consider the proposal in the Bill in favour of con- structing a short line to convey passengers to Barry Island. Captain Richard Davies' examination was con- tinued by Mr Cripps. He said that on the navigation point outside the new breakwater on one side of Barry works the strength of the tide was from three-quarters to a knot an hour. As regarded the public necessity to have this rail way, he was well acquainted, from living in the district, with the conditions and requirements of the Barry traffic, and he could say that there were a large number of people who came down to Barry Island to the point where this railway was stationed. In the summer time, in the evenings and on holidays, the sands were covered with thousands of people from all parts of the country. The bulk of the people who came down on such occasions were people working in the collieries, and they amounted to thousands. At the present time, by the existing railway accommodation, they had to walk about a mile or more from Barry Station to the island. By Mr L. M. Richards (representing owners and masters of coasting and trading vessels, and also pilots) He had seen boats lying in the harbour, but there had been more there lately since the Bill had been deposited. Counsel produced a photograph of the harbour in which boats were represented as lying in the upper part of the harbour. Witness Oh, yes, I see them. I have no doubt they were sent there for the purpose of getting those photographs taken. Mr Richards And were the boats in your photographs sent there for the purpose Witness We have no control over boats to send them there. Mr Richards But you suggest we have ? Witness (emphatically) Yes. What are you going to do with the upper por- tion of the harbour ?-All I know is that the com- pany want to get a railway across the island. There is no dock to be made there ?—No, certainly not. That you are certain of ?—Yes there is plenty of land on the other side. Do you propose filling that in ?-I do not know I have heard nothing of what is to be done. One thing I am certain of, from my own knowledge, is that the directors would never think of making a dock there. Are you aware that since the inception of this undertaking, on every occasion on which the Barry Dock Company have come to Parliament, they have taken care to protect and keep this harbour open as a harbour of refuge, and this is the first time it has been up since it was with the company. The Chairman If clauses relating to that point are in the Act, you can read them to us in argument. Re-examined by Mr Cripps, Q.C. (for the pro- moters), witness said that. as regarded the entrance to the eastern side, where the new breakwaters were, there were regulations for protecting the fair way. There was ample room left for pilotage boats or coasters to get in behind the breakwater for refuge purposes. Mr John Guthrie. J.P., senior partner in the firm of Messrs Guthrie, Heywood, and Co., ship- owners and shipbrokers, of Cardiff, nautical assessor to the Cardiff County Court, and member of the Cardiff Pilotage Board, said that he had carefully considered this new railway, especially as it affected the harbour of refuge, and, as a nautical man, his opinion was that it would im- prove the harbour of refuge, which at present he did not consider was a harbour of refuge at all. Mr Jonathan Lewis, licensed pilot for Cardiff and Barry, and a member of the Barry Pilotage Board, said, in reply to Mr Shaw, that the proposed embankment would be a great benefit. It would be the means of utilising the island for building purposes. There was a great demand from people living on the island for a railway to come across. In his opinion the harbour was of no use for any other purpose than that. The harbour, as such, was useless, and had been so ever since he was a boy. The little piece of pier, with a light on it, was a great improvement. The eastern side where the embankment had been made was a splendid place for a harbour. A lot of vessels-pilot boats and tug boats-frequently visited the place. Horatio Davies, a Cardiff and Barry pilot, gave it as his opinion that the proposed new break- water would be really very beneficial for pilots and small craft. He knew the place well, and the sort of vessels that used the harbour were very small vessels and private boats. Sometimes they lay a little inside the harbour, where the proposed railway was to be. It would not be prudent to go into the harbour at night. The western side of the harbour was a complete harbour of refuge, but the eastern side was never a harbour of refuge. Other witnesses having been examined, Mr David Thomas Alexander, auctioneer and estate agent, residing near Barry, president of the Barry Chamber of Trade, said that he was instructed to appear before the committee by his chamber in support of the scheme on public grounds alone. They had in Glamorganshire an enormous population in the hilly districts that required better access to the sea. He had taken part in several deputations that had waited on the Barry directors to urge upon them the necessity of furnishing facilities for passenger accommodation in the Barry district. The island supplied one of the best protected and most natural spots for bathing purposes on the Bristol Channel, and the people required better railway accommodation than at present existed to get there. At the present time they had a mile or a mile and a half to walk to the beach, and in doing so they had to get over a high sand bank, in doing which they got pretty well up to their knees in mud. With regard to the closing of a part of the harbour, he was of opinion that it would be in the public interest, and would not to any appre- ciable extent interfere with any harbour of refuge. Mr Robert Forrest, J.P., late high sheriff of the county of Glamorgan, director of the Barry Rail- way, and agent to Lord Windsor, said he thought that the proposed railway would be a great ad van- tage, and he agreed generally with what had been said by the previous witness as to the great demand by the public generally for this extended accommodation. Mr J. Wolfe-Barry, consulting engineer to the Barry Railway Company, recalled, said, in reply to the committee as to how they proposed to deal with the piece of land north of the breakwater, that they proposed gradually to fill it up and use it for a variety of purposes, as they were now feeling the want of it very much indeed for goods stations, locomotive and carriage departments. Mr Shaw announced that this closed the case for the promoters. Captain John Thomas, Aberthaw, owner of coasting vessels, said that the nearest refuge from Aberthaw, with which a considerable lime trade was done, was Ilfracombe, after taking away Barry. Only one pilot out of 199 refused to sign the petition. He had gone into Barry with four feet of water in the hold of his vessel. If Barry had not been there he would not now be in that committee-room. (Laughter). He did not think that the breakwater would be any improvement. The harbour was used frequently by night as well as by day. Since the dock at Barry had been made there has been an accumulation of mud and sand. In his opinion, if the embankment were made there would be a rapid silting up-they had better take the other part as well, and shut it up altogether. Mr Wm. Saunders, of Cardiff and Barry, i pilot, 7 and a member of the Barry Pilotage Board. considered that if the Bill passed it would have the effect of doing away with the laying ground, which was a very important matter to pilots and coasters in the channel, as that class of craft required soft mud or smooth hard ground. As far as pilot boats were con- cerned, what it was proposed to leave of Barry Harbour would not be the slightest bit of use to them. The breakwater would be some benefit, provided that no portion of the harbour was dammed. There had been a great agitation to have a refuge there. He said a harbour of refuge was necessary on the Bristol Channel, and his opinion was that at Barry there was one which, with a slight improvement, could be made avail- able for a larger class of ships than could be accom- modated at present. What was now urgently required was further harbour refuge accommoda- tion, instead of taking any of the existing harbour away. Further evidence was taken, and the committee adjourned till Wednesday.