Rhyl Record and Advertiser

RHYL URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL. SPECIAL MEETING. EXTRAORDINARY SCENES. A special meeting of the Rhyl Urban District Council was held at the Council Chamber, Town Hall, on Wednesday. There were present Messrs. J. S. Greenhalgh, J.P. (Chairman), E. P. Jones (Vice-Chairman), A. L. Clews, P. Mos- tyn Wiliams, J. H. Ellis, J. Frimston, Robert Jones, David Griffiths, Thomas Whitley, J. W. Jones, C. W. Berrie, W. Elwy Williams, H. A. Tilby, A. Maltby, Jos. A. Williams, with the Clerk (Mr. 'Arthur Rowlands), the Town Sur. veyor (Mr. A. Goodall), the Consulting Surveyor (Mr. Robert Hughes), and Mr. D. C. Radcliffe, solicitor, acting on behalf of the Council in the matter of the agreement with the Tramway Co. THE WEST PROMENADE EXTENSION. 'As a matter of urgency, Mr. Robert Jones was allowed to bring forward a recommendation of the sub-committee with reference to proceeding with some protective work at the end of the present extension. In view of the prospect of severe weather during the coming winter, it was imperative that something should be done, or the works they were now carrying out would be exposed to serious damage. The committee suggested that the present retaining wall should be continued for forty yards further westwards to a height of three feet above the surface of the shore. They estimated that the co4t of carrying out this work would be L70 or £ S0. He proposed that th committee be auth- orised to proceed with the work. Mr. W. Elwy Williams asked what kind of Engineering they called it that did not make pro- vision for an emergency of this sort. He poin- ted out that the further extension had not yet been sanctioned. Mr. T. Whitley said it was only intended that the retaining wall should be three feet above the ground level. He did not regard that height sufficient, and he believed unless they built it considerably higher it would not be sufficient protection. In reply to Mr. J. W. Jones, it was stated that Messrs. Williams and Sutcliffe would have to bear 40 per cent. of the cost, and that the re- taining wall formed part of the permanent *work which the Council had already decided to carry -out. The standing orders having been suspended, the motion was put to the meeting and agreed *&. THE PRESENTATION TO LCRD DUNnONALD. The Chairman said that Mr. E. A. Crabbe, Abergele, secretary to the movement to present I.ord Dundonald with a sword of honour on the occasion of his home-coming, had sent him a collecting book. The sum of JB200 had already been promised, and another £100 was required. As Rhyl had decided to join in the movement lie expressed the hope that they as members of the Council would subscribe. He should have liked to see something done in Hhyl by way of celebration on their own ac- count. But if that was impossible the next best thing they could do was to show their sympathy with their neighbours in doing honour to a •oistir.gukhed neighbour. After some further discussion the subscription list was passed around, and several members subscribed. THE IMPORTATION OF MILITARY TO BETHESDA. INEFFECTUAL ATTEMPT TO STIFLE DISCUSSION— LIVELY SCENES—PROTEST CARRIED. Mr. C. W. Berrie said he did not intend to apologise for bringing this matter forward. He felt it his duty as a Welsh citizen and as a re- presentative of a public body in Wales to move "That this Council protests against the impor- tation of military into North Wales (cries of Oh, Oh"). Mr. Mostyn Williams: We must protest against this thing. It is a most irregular pro- ceeding. Mr. Berrie I claim my right to do this. The Standing orders are suspended, and- Mr. J. H. Ellis: It is quite out of arder. There is nothing to occasion the introduction Ú. anything having to do with the county of Carnarvonshire. Mr. Berrie This is Wales. Mr. Ellis: But it has nothing to do with the military of this county. I appeal to you to rule this out of order. I The Chairman I have ruled it out of order. Mr. J. W. Jones: By what rule do you rule -it out of order? There are no standing orders I in existence now. The Chairman: I ruled it out of order, be. cause we are not in Carnarvonshire, but in Flintshire. Ir. J. W. Jones: I move that Councillor Berrie be heard, and if not that the names be taken. Mr. Elwy Williams: Every authority in "Wales has done it, and this authority is in Wales. Mr. Ellis I beg to propose that we proceed to the next business. Mr. Maltby I never heard of such a thing. Mr. Jones I demand that the names should be taken. Mr. Clews: I don't think a vote is needeJ. The Chairman's ruling is sufficient. Mr. Mostyn Williams You have ruled it out of order. Mr. J. W. Jones: And we will have the names. Mr. Maltby: Why should the names be taken ? Mr. J. W. Jones (sneeringly) Why, are you afraid ? (laughter). fr. Tilby Ir. Chairman, I hope you will not be bounced by the tone of my friend. He is only playing a game of bluff (laughter). If you have ruled, stick to your ruling. ThesM gentlemen surely have not got the monopoly of sympathy with the miners of Bethesda. fr. Elwy Williams: I have got sympathy with them. In my time I have bought thous- ands of slates from them. I think it is a scandal upon civilisation to import the military into a peaceful district. I repeat that it is an insult to the Welsh nation (hear, hear). That's what I have to say about it. Mr. Frimston I think this is entirely a Welsh question (hear, hear). It affects us altogether. We don't want the military there any more than we do in Rhyl. We shall have you getting the magistrates doing the same in Rhyl (laughier). Mr. Maltby: Well, I never (laughteri. Mr. J. W. Jones I ask that Mr. Berrie be Jieard on this matter. Mr. Frimston • Hear, hear. The Chairman I have ruled it out of order. 'Mr. J. W. Jones: Take a vote, and- Mr. Ellis Stick to it (laughter). The Chairman: Proceed please. Mr. E. P. Jones (Vice-Chairman) I think we should vote (hear, hear). It is not fair. We feed upon tlris question very strongly, and if we are wrong here, they are out of order all o\er fiorth Wales. I have my opinion about it. Mr. Ellis We have not got to Day for it. Mr. E. P. Jones: Our friends have to pay for it, and we don't know how soon we mav have to pay for it. Mr. Berrie They have to pay for it in W ales Mr. Ellis We have to deal with the present question Mr. Elwy Williams: Are we going to have a discussion on this subject. If so, I have a long speech ready (laughter). > The Chairman Next busines, please. Mr. J. W. Jones You cannot have one law for yourself, and one for the members of the Coun- cil. I move that Mr. Berrie be heard, because you have no standing orders in existence. Mr. Elwy Williams: The Rhyl Council wiU be in the unique position of having insulted the I Welsh nation Mr. D. Griffiths: This is rather a disgraceful thing. The Chairman: Give notice for the next meeting. Mr. J. W. Jones (emphatically): I shall not, sir How can I ? the standing orders prohibit it, and I insist upon this motion being heard. I appeal to the Clerk whether there can be any standing orders in force now. I ask you as o-jr legal adviser ar.d Town Clerk. The Clerk said it was not for him to decide. Tie referred them to standing order 57- Mr. Jones But at present there are none in existence. The Clerk read the clause in question, which said that the ruling of the Chairman in any case was not to be disputed. Mr. Elwy Williams: The standing orders are nothing but a dead letter. There are none (laugft^i). Me J. H. Ellis: But where shall we stand if we are going to allow these extraneous matters relating to another county ? We are here to discuss matters in oorfhection with the electric light. We are not here to waste time. llr. J. W. Jones: You would have finished by now. You simply want to defeat it by a side wind. Mr. Elwy Williams As Welshmen we con- demn what has been done. Mr. Ellis The Carnarvonshire people have to pay for it. lr. C. W. Berrie: You have already dis- cussed two matters which are foreign to this meeting. lr. J. H. Ellis: It is a matter of urgency. Mr. Berrie: We have a perfect right as Welshmen to protest, and you might have given us permission as an act of grace, and not opposo us in this way. Mr. J. H. Ellis It is a political dodge, and eothing more. Mr. J. W. Jones: Nonsense. Mr. Berrie Other Councils have discussed it. Mr. J. W. Jones: And why should not we ? The Chairman: I brought urgent business- forward at the request of the committee that met this morning. Mr. Frimston: And we never objected or raised a voice. The Chairman We cannot discuss matters relating to things outside this county. Let Mr. Jones bring his motion forward at the r.ext mee- ting. Mr. J. W. Jones: But I shall be ruled out of order. I know that dodge. I am entitled to move it now, because the standing orders ar- suspended. The Cnairman The majority of the Counci1 is against. Mr. Jones Then let us test the feeling. The Chairman (emphatically) I have rulc-i it out of order, and shall stick to it. Mr. J. W. Jones: You were proceeding tc take a vote when you were "flumaxed" by Mr Ellis ("No, no"). lr. W. Elwy Williams: Let us have it on record that this is the way that we Welshme i in Wales are to ba insulted (applause). Mr. Clews It is absolute nonsense that you are talking Mr. Ellis He is talking to the gallery. The Chairman Are you ready to go on to the next business ? Mr. Mostyn Williams I shall be prepared t, take the resolution at the close. Ir. Frimston No, let us have it now. Mr. Mostyn Williams: The Chairman can bring forward special business at the opening of the meeting. Mr. Frimston: I am surprised at the Chair- mm doing what he did. Mr. Mc stvn Williams said he was in sympathy with the resolution, and would be prepared to take it at the close. Ir. Tilby That is a different matter. Mr. Frimston Because we are Welshmen we are treated like this, and are ruled out of order. You are not a Welshman, Ir. Chairman, and you have not a drop of, Welsh blood in your veins, or you would listen to it. The Chairman said he was surprised at what Mr. Frimston had said. It was at the special request of that councillor that he had brought the business forward at the opening of the mee- ting. Ir. Frimston I did not ask you to speak of Lord Dundonald's testimonial. The Chairman I know that, but the Council dealt with it at the last meeting. Let Mr. Ber- rie bring the matter forward at the next meet. ing. I have ruled it out of order to-day, and I will stick to it (hear, hear). Mr. Ellis Call upon Ir. Mostyn Williams to proceed to the next business. The Chairman has ruled Mr. Berrie out of order. Mr. J. W. Jones He has no right to rule him out of order (laughter). The Chairman If that is the case, the Vice- Chairman had better take the chair (laughter) Mr. Tilby I hope that these gentlemen are not going to persevere with this matter. I think that I have as much sympathy with workmen aj anyone on this Council. If they want to hold an indignation meeting let them take the Town Hall, and I will pay half the cost. We have no right to deal with business of a political character Mr. J. W. Jones: It is not of a political char- acter. Ir. Tilby: It is held out as a political ques- tion there. lr. J. W. Jones That is not so. Mr. Thorn- ton Jones, the Conservative agent, is the leader of the agitation against the military. Mr. Tilby said he felt that if they allowed matters of that kind to be discussed they would find that they would be acting against the inter- est of the town. If they had to discuss the question, they should proceed in a proper manner The Chairman: I will help to arrange for a public meeting, and I will pay the expense of the Victoria Hall- Ir. W. Elwy Williams: It i3 over a stable, and it stinks ("Order, order"). Mr. J. H. Ellis: I like to discuss extraneous questions at times, but I ask you to pay respect to the Chairman. There are some members who want to thrust their own ruling in place of that of the Chairman. Mr. J. W. Jones: The Chairman ruled me in order, but you ruled the Chairman to say that I was out of order. Mr. Ellis The Chairman was right, and he ruled that you were wrong. Mr. Elwy Williams: Why do you make al1 these speeches. If you speak I shall have to do the same. Mr. Ellis. I speak because you have suspen- ded the standing orders. I only ask you to be serious. Ir. Elwy Williams: I am serious. Mr. Ellis I ask you to pay deference to the ruling of the chair. We have our own dignity to uphold as well as the dignity of the Council. Some young members of this Council seem to say, I am Sir Orrcle, when I open mv lips, let no dog bark" (laughter). Proceed- ing, Mr. Ellis said that the Council had de- cided to help the people of Abergele to welcome Lord Dundonald.- He had attended a meeting in connection with the celebration, and had been well received. He considered the discus- sicn that day was a politcal dodge, and there was no doubt that in the Bethesda district the question was a political one. The Vice-Chairman: That is not so. Mr Ellis I think that workpeople should be protected, but there is a difference of opinion between the working men and the people of th* quarry. Mr. J. Jones: You are allowing the mat- ter now to be discussed, and Mr. Berrie should go on. -Nfr. -errie denied that it was a political dodge. He believed that the matter would have been settled long ago had he been allowed to proceed. He also denied that two or three members at his end of the table had stopped the business To say such a thing was very peculiar. Jr. Grimths It is so. The Chairman: I think I will call upon the Council to proceed with the next business. Mr. Berrie said he considered it an insult to the Welsh as a law-abiding people that the military should be imported into the country. He thought that anyone who had read the ex- planation of Colonel Ruck would say that the action taken was not justified. Mr. Maltby Let us get on with business. We are the laughing-stock of the world. Mr. Frimston That is not so. Mr. Maltby: It is a thorough bear garden. All the members are speaking at the^same time. It is only when I am speaking thot you listen. I want to give you my opinion on this matter. I think it is perfectly ridiculous to go on like this. Ir. W. Elwy Williams said that if the Chair- man left the chair for a few minutes the Vice- Chairman would settle the question. The Chairman replied that on several occa- sions he had given way, but on that question he was determined that he would stand by wha'. he had done. He had acted according to his best judgment, but he did not want to express an opinion on the subject raised by Mr. Berrie, as he had not studied it. He had showed that he had sympathy with Wales, and particularly with Rhyl for the past 25 years, as he had slaved in their midst. He had answered to the beck and call of the councillors in referring to the minutes, but he v/ould not again go back on his word. He had ruled it out of order, and he would stick to it. Mr. W. Elwy Williams At the last meeting you told me that I was mean. I want to inform you that I am not as mean as you make mc out to be. I stood a luncheon for this Council, and I hope you will follow suit. The Chairman It is the first time I knew it. I never participated in it. Mr. W. Elwv Williams You were invited. Mr. Ellis- Get on to the next business. I Mr. J. W. Jones: You are afraid. You are I afraid to vote. Mr. J. H. Ellis (rising in astonishment) I I afraid! I am not afraid. You have come to the wrong man. I am not afraid of any man. Mr. Clews: Not of him at all events', At the close of the meeting the Chairman left the chair, and was putting on his overcoat, when Ir. Berrie asked that he should be allowed v: propose his motion. He was met with cries of The meeting is over." Mr. J. W. Jones I move that Mr. E. P. Jones takes the chair. As long as there are seven councillors present according to the standing orders the Council can go on. The Chairman (moving from the table towards the door) Give notice for it at the next meet- ing. Mr. J. W. Jones: If you will not stay, I move that Mr. t. P. Jones takes the chair. lr. Elwy Williams (to the Chairman) Yot promised to take it at the end of the meeting. It is a dirty trick. Several of the members walked towards the door, and a scene of disorder generally pre- vailed, three or four of the councillors endea- vouring to speak at the same time. lr. J. W. Jones: Take the chair, Mr. Jones. It is a legally constituted meeting as long as the Vice-Chairman is in the room. The Chairman: Give notice for the next meeting. I have had enough of you. Ir. J. W. Jones But you promised to take it at the end of the business. The Chairman I say that I have ruled it out of order. I had a business appointment at 6 o'clock, and here it is nearly seven. Mr. J. W. Jones: Go on, we will excuse you. The Chairman I have ruled you out of or- der, and I will not go back on my word. If we begin to recognize politics in the business of the Council we shall be here all night. I de- cline to go on any further. Mr. W. Elwy Williams I move that the Yice- Chairman takes the chair. Amid cries of "Take the chair, Ir. Jones, the Vice-Chairman sat down at the head of the table. Seeing this some of the members who were in the act of leaving the room returned, and protested. The Chairman declared the meeting at an end, and Ir. J. H. Ellis, who had his overcoat on, took it off again, and coming to the table said The meeting is ir- regular. The Town Clerk cannot act, as the meeting is over. lr. Frimston: We do not take your ruling. We have a chairman, and we will take his rul- ing. Mr. Berrie: The jesoluticn I have to move— Mr. Ellis, who was greeted with cries of Order,' Chair,' and Sit down,' said I rise to a point of order. I ask if the Clerk is en- titled to take a record of this meeting ? (' Oh, oh,' 'Yes,' and 'Sit down.' At this point the Chairman left the room, adding as he reached the door, I'll leave you to it." The Town Clerk You are bound by the rul- of the Chairman for the time being. Mr. E. P. Jones: I am in the chair. Go on. Mr. Berrie. Mr. Berrie then proposed a resolution that the Council protests against the importation of the military into Bangor as being unnecessa v and an insult to the Wélsh people as law-abiding citizens. He said he spoke as a Welshman, and as one who had lived in Wales all his life He knew what the Welsh people were like. He looked upon what had been done as a direct insult to the people of Wales. Mr. J. W. Jones seconded the motion, and as he did so, Mr. Ellis turned to leave the room, remarking, Well, this is rich." Continuing, Mr. Jones said he considered the importation of the military as a reflection on a body of men who had shown that they possessed intelligence, and who had sacrificed a great deal for educa- cl tion. Mr. W. Elwy Williams supported the resolu- tion, and said he could not see how it could be said that it was a party question, when the Tory members of the Carnarvonshire County Coun- cil had voted for a like resolution. He con- sidered that they as Welsh people had been grossly insulted, as there was not a tittle of evidence that ihere was any violence intended. He did not propose to go into the meiits of tlr: dispute, as he understood that the matter was before the courts, and would be decided by those competent to judge. He could not heip saying that what had been done as regards th*. military was an insult and a scandal to the people of Wales. Mr. Mostyn Williams regretted that matters had taken the course they had seen that day. He agreed with the resolution. He thought that they were in honour bound to pass that resolution, and he regietted that several coun- cillors had left the room without voting. Mr. Robert Jones said it was evident that the military were not required at Bangor when 18 or 20 men against whom warrants were issued quietly surrendered to one pel iceman. On being put to the meeting, the Chairman declared thfe resolution carried unanimously, the following voting for it:—Messrs. E. P. Jones, W. Elwy Williams, C. W. Berrie. J. W. Jones, T. Whitley, J. Frimston, T. D. Jones, P. .Mostyn Williams, and Robert Jones, the other members having left the room. The question arose as to whom ihe resolution should be sent, and it was decided that it should go to the Home Secretary, Mr. Samuel Smith, rr. Lloyd George, and the Chief Constable of Carnarvonshire, although lr. Elwy Williams said he did not consider that the last named was worth powder and shot, and that he did not know why old soldiers were appointed Chief Constables instead of the positions being filled by civilians who had sense in their heads. THE AGREEMENT WITH THE LIGHT RAILWAY COMPANY: MORE DIFFICULTIES: EXTRAORDIN- ARY DEADLOCK. Minutes were read of two meetings of the Electric Light Committee with reference to the agreement with the Light Railway Company with respect to the supply of current by the Council for the working of the tramway. Mr. Warwick Webb, the solicitor to the Company, had met the Company, and had agreed to the penalty baing fixed at B2 per hour between the 15th of July and the 15th of September, and JB1 per hour for the remaining period he also agreed to deposit the cum of L500 to be forfeited to the Council in the event of the Company failing to exercise their powers within twelve months of the signing of the agreement. The recommendation of the committee was that the above offer be accepted subject to the penalties in any one year not exceeding E100, and to the penalty clause not being inconsistent with the powers of the Council under the Electric Light. ing Order. With regard to meters, Mr. War- wick Webb introduced a clause to the effect that two meters should be provided, to one of which access should be had by the Company, and in case of difference in the two meters that the mean should be taken. The committee's re- commendation was that the provision in regard to meters should be in accordance with the powers of the Council under the Provisional Order. There was a clause also in the agree- ment that the Council should pledge themselves to be ready to supply the current by the 1st of Xugust, but the committee recommended that this be reconsideted. Mr. Mostyn Williams, in moving the confirma- tion of the minutes, said he doubted very much whether they should be ready by the 1st of August, 1901. At a meeting of the committee held on the previous evening the Surveyor told them it would take about seven months to com- plete the buildings, though a short time ago whan they asked him a similar question he told them they could be completed in three months. They must add to that contingencies, so they might take it that it would be nine or ten months or even twelve months before the buildings would be completed. He, therefore, thought it would be very unwise on their part to render themselves liable to penalties in the event of the works not being ready by the 1st of Augv.s;. Mr. Webb had offered to meet the Council in regard to the guarantee of £1,000 demanded by agreeing to deposit JB500, and in the event of their failing to carry out their part of the agree- ment that amount would be absolutely forfeited to the Council. Having regard to all the cir- cumstances, the Council were disposed to ac- cept the offer But with regard to the proposal of Ir. Webb that the two meters should be sup- plied, and that the Company should have the right of access to one of them, and the mean taken in case of difference, he thought that should be objected to, for there was nothing to prevent someone going to one of the meters and tampering with it. He thought that they should adhere to their own provisional order, which in case the dispute stipulated that the differences in the meter should be referred to the arbitra- ment of a competent electrical engineer. With regard to the price of the current to the Company the arrangement was that they should supply up to 150,000 units at the rate of lid. per unit, and between 150,000 units and 250,000 units ld., and when the total quantity consumed exceeded 250,000 units there should be a uniform charge of ld. per unit. But the effect of that would be that when the consumption just exceeded 250,000 units there would be a loss to the Couu* cil of L156, and he was of opinion that that should be made good. He also objected to the Council having to incur any responsibility of the application of the current to the tramway wires at the generating station, and contended that their responsibility should end with the delivering of the current at the requsite pres- sure at the feeder-box near the Westminster Hotel. In reply to Mr. Elwy Williams, -Air. Radcliffe (the Council's solicitor) advised" that the penalty clause in the agreement was inconsistent with the powers of the Council under the Electric Light Order unless they received the consent of the Local Government Board. Under the order the penalties payable by the Council in case of default were fixed at 2 per day in respect of each default, but in no case was the aggregate to exceed 50 in any one day. Mr. J. W. Jones seconded the confirmation of the minutes. He said that the point the Coun- cil had to consider was that they wished to re- duce the custom of the Tramway Company. He was one of those who wished to get as much out of the Company as they possibly could, but he objected to the imposition of un- reasonable conditions which might lead to their loosing the custom of the Company. That was the object of Mr. J. H. Ellis. He wished to up- set the agreement with the Company. But they must remember that they had incurred an ex- penditure of £ 5,000 on extra machinery spec- ially to meet this, and in return they were guar- anteed an annual revenue of £ 1,100. Unless they got this revenue the electric light would be a loss to the town for years to come. If they abandoned the custom of the-Company, they could not withdraw from the expenditure, be- cause the machinery had been ordered, and they would have to maintain the electric light staff. He hoped that the business interests and the common-sense of the Council would triumph over the prejudices and whims of individuals. Mr. C. W. Berrie said that speaking as a mem- ber of the Electric Light Committee he had seen no business instincts on that committee for a long time. Every time its chairman spoke they heard something fresh, and something they had never heard before. At the last meeting he attended, when they sat for four mortal hours, the Electric Lighting Order was produced, and there was not a member of that committee who knew before that it contained a penalty clause. At all the meetings he had previously attended the Surveyor always said that the buildings could be put up in three months now it was said they could not be put up under seven months. In the course of the discussion on this matter they had heard statements made as to money deposited by the gentlemen who com- prised this Company, and he was sorry to say that lr. Rowlands had given his countenance to these statements. It had been said over and over again that they had deposited L2,000 with the Board of Trade, but Mr. Warwick Webb, when he met the committee, said he did not wish to mislead them, and frankly said that they had not deposited a single penny with the Board of Trade, and he further said that they could not raise a single penny of capital until the order was confirmed by the Board of Trade. The Council had been misled by statements of this kind all along. He did not think that they ought to confirm the minutes, and he moved that they be referred back to the committee for re-consideration. Mr. Thomas Whitley seconded. lr. P. Mostyn Williams: Every statement that lr. Berrie has made is false and unfoun- ded. Ir. H. A. Tilby: That is a most improper re- mark. To charge another member with telling a falsehood is transgressing all rules, and Ir, Mostyn Williams ought to withdraw. Mr. Mostyn Williams I shall not withdraw. Mr. Tilby Then you ought to be made to. Mr. J. H. Ellis Although Mr. Berrie is not quite correct in every particular; he is, in the main correct, and I think that to say that all his statements are false is going a little too far. Mr. Mostyn Williams I appeal to the Clerk. The Clerk said that Ir. Berrie was evidently ignorant of the circumstances of the case, and had not made a true statement in any sense. What he had always said was that before the Company could proceed with any work they would have to deposit £2,000 with the Board of Trade. Until they obtained confirmation to the order of the Board of Trade they could not pro- ceed with any work. Ir. C. W. Berrie said he was charged with making a false statement. It might be a mis- apprahension, but he said distinctly that the members of the Council had been led to believe that the £2,000 had been actually deposited, and that was the recollection of most of the members (hear, hear). Mr. W. Elwy Williams said that every pos- sible reason had been given why this matter should be referred back to the committee. The committee itself was at variance one with the other, and they did not seem to know their own minds. A prominent member of the committee had admitted that he had never seen a lot of men with such little business instincts. Per- sonally, he regarded the introduction of tram- ways to Rhyl as the greatest calamity to the town, because it would destroy its unique re- putation as a safe place for children. But he took it they could not prevent that now, and the only question was the terms on which they should supply current to the Company. In view of their own Provisional Order he was surprised that the committee should tie them- selves to any penalties beyond what was con- tained in that order. They had been told that they were going to spend C5,000 upon extra machinery in order to supply the Company. Was that not in itself a guarantee that the Coun- cil meant to do their best to provide a proper supply ? They ought not to treat this Compony any differently to an ordinary consumer. The Clerk said that the difference between the Company and an ordinary consumer was that they compelled them to take a minimum quantity for five years. Mr. Elwy Williams said that the guarantee of the Council should be sufficient, especially in view of the fact that they were increasing their expenditure on the electric light works from' £15,000 to £30,000 primarily to supply this Companv. He objected to their being tied hand and foot to this Company. He begged oiijfoem to drop the penalty clause, and to. tell Mr. Warwick Webb that they were not going to be tied in this manner. He also urged that they should adhere to the Bl,000 deposit, and that they should insist upon meters in accordance with their own order, and also adhere to the price of lid. up to 150,000 no matter what the further consumption was. Mr. J. H. Ellis said he took a different view entirely to most of the members of the Council in regard to this matter. The more they met and looked into this question, the more they found themselves at variance with the require- ments of the Company. The Company wished them to bizid themselves to supply them by the 1st of August, but it was now palpable to every- one that they would be unable to do that. That being so, it was high time for them to. take an independent attitude altogether, and let the Company supply their own energy, and that the Council should confine themselves to their own' electric lighting scheme. The tenders they had received for the erection of the, buildings were very much in excess of the estimate, even mak- ing allowance for the increase that had taken place in the price of materials. There was a tendency on the part of the committee to accept the lowest tender simply in order not to be behind in supplying this Company, whereas if they did not hurry matters they might be able to save a considerable sum in the cost of the building. It had been said that they would ob- tain a revenue of £1,100 a year by supplying this Company, but he contended that they would find, if they compared the price with that of other towns, that they would be supplying th'e current at a loss. He urged that they should make an efficient start with their own electric light works, and not allow themselvito to be ham- pered and harassed by being tied to this Com- pany. He was really afraid of the consequences that would ensue if they tied themselves to this Company. They would find that the penalties would begin at the very first outset, for works of this description could not be commenced without some friction. He was prepared to move "That this Council is opinion that owing to incomplete arrangements ij. is undesir- able at present to supply electric energy to the Light Railway Company." He hoped the Council would not be in any way led into an agreement that could be construed every way, and which might lead to endless litigation, j He felt if they insisted upon going on with this matter that he was in so isolated a position on the Electric Light Committee that he should have to resign his position on that committee, despite his desire to devote all the energy he could to the welfare of the town. Mr. John Frimston said he must confess that they were at sixes and sevens on the Electric Light Committee, and hardly knew where they were.. He was strongly opposed to the intro- duction of tramways into the town, but they could not now possibly prevent them, and what they had to do was to make the best of them. He, however, agreed with Mr. Elwy Williams that they should drop the penalty clause, and not concede to the Company any more than they conceded their ordinary consumers under the Electric Lighting Order. He thought that the whole matter, should be re-considered by the committee. Mr. H. A. Tilby said that notwithstanding that this matter had been before them month after month they were still coming forward with all manner of new things. So that they might thoroughly understand where they were, and not be following a will of the wisp," he supported that the matter should be referred back to the committee, but with the clear understanding that the Council had decided what the terms of the agreement were, and that they meant to stick to it. Mr. A. L. Clews thought it was a pity that an important matter of this kind was not left in fewer hands, and it was a further misfortune that one-half of the Electric Light Committee, who had the conduct of these negotiations, was opposed to the introduction of the tramways. It was an admitted fact that by this arrange- ment they would get a certain annual revenue from the Tramway Company which would be a certain financial assistance to their Electric Light Works, and this fact was one of the rea- sons that had reconciled him to the electric light scheme. It was all very well to say that they should not bind themselves to any penalty. The Company were going to spend a large amount of capital in laying down this railway, and the success of the undertaking would depend upon their providing a proper and efficient service of trams., The Council compelled th$m to pay. so much a year for power whether they took it or not, and it was only reasonable that they should be compensated against any loss through the failure of the Council to provide them with a proper supply. His suggestion was that the Chairman of the Council, the Chairman of the Committee, with the Clerk, and also one of the opponents should proceed to London and settle the points in dispute with the Board of Trade, because the tendency of the Board of Trade was to lean towards the local authority, and they would be perfectly safe in their hands, but he would stipulate that, they should not have power ,to pledge the Council to supply the current by 'the 1st of August. He felt sure that whatever 'settlement the Board' of Trade made would be 'in the interest of the Council. They were far :more likely to obtain a satisfactory settlement in this way than by leaving it in the hands of ,the committee. At the last meeting, when this matter was discussed, there were as many as fifteen in the room. Mi. Elwy Williams The Scriptures say that in many councillors there is safety (laughter). Mr. Clews: There is another saying to the effect that too many cooks spoil the broth (laughter). i Mr. Elwy Williams But that Is not Scripture '(laughter). After Mr. Mostyn Williams had replied, and after further discussion., i,t was eventually, un- animously agreed to refer the whole matter back to the committee, who are to report to a special meeting of the Council to be held on Tuesday evening.