Rhondda Leader Maesteg Garw and Ogmore Telegraph

"lhe Church in Wales." Vicar of Clydach Vale Replies to Rev. S. B. John. To the Editor of the Rhondda Leader." Sir,—I suppose I must believe that the Rev. S. B. John is in a serious mood, and in real earnest about the matter in con- troversy between us. albeit I confess that, after reading his last letter, I was at first inclined to think he wrote more in jest than in earnest. He says that Mr. Gladstone late in life abandoned the main argument of his book (" Church and State '") as no longer tenable. In reply I beg to state that I challenge Mr. John or any other man in the world to prove that Mr. Gladstone ever changed his mind on the question of the Continuity of the Anglican Church. Late in life, he did change his mind on the Disestablish- ment question, regarded propter utili- tatem, but that is not the point here. The point t at issue is the question of Continuity: -Is the Anglican Church after the Refor- mation identical as to the essentials of faith with the Anglican Church before the Reformation, or is it an institution that came into existence in the reign of Henry VIII. ? Continuity is the pivot on which Mr. John made his argument for disendowment to turn. Now, I am prepared to fight him out on this point, but he must stick to his guns. He must not be elusive, and given to treating the readers with half-truths and disconnected quotations (mere limbs of sentences some of them are), thus endeavouring to "foul the scent." To revert for a moment to Mr. Gladstone, let me add a little sauce to my challenge; it may make my friend more eager for a bite. I offer to give Mr. John a donation of one hundred pounds towards a new chapel if he will bring forward an indisputable proof that the late Mr. William Ewart Gladstone denied, at any period of his life, the Continuity of the Anglican Church. Mr. John makes very free with the respected names of Hooker. Milman, and Stubbs. I challenge him further to give a single quotation from the works of these recognised authorities which will clearlv show that any one of them held the view that the Church of England came into existence at the Reformation. With regard to our present Archbishop I can say nothing, till I hear from him. I have written his Grace, enclosing him a copy of the Rhondda Leader," and have asked him to say whether Mr. John is correct in saying that his Grace does not, or did not, believe in the Continuity of our Church. It is very easy to bandy statements about, and to take a man's name in vain, especially if the man is not there to defend himself. I shall publish the Archbishop's reply when it comes, and shall deposit the original letter at the office of this paper for authentication. Now, it is perfectly clear, even to the most ordinary mind, that Mr. John-his boast to the contrary, notwithstanding- does not give to historical terms their historical meaning. Reformation to him must mean "origination," and not amendment. To re-form a thing, implies that the thing existed in some shape or form before, else the word is meaningless. Nobody, sir, denies that the Church was reformed in the sixteenth century. "Every schoolboy," to use Macaulay's famous phrase, knows that." What no one who knows anything about fcistorr will dare assert is that the Church of England after the Reformation is a different Church from the Church of England before the Reformation, that is, different as to any of those essentials of faith which I pointed out in my last letter. She is, was, and ever will be, I hope. a branch of the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. What happened at the Reformation is that the Anglican Church repudiated the claims of the Pope to be universal bishop, and his pretended rights to enforce upon her what she regarded as merely papal doctrines-such as transubstantiation, enforced celibacy, &c. If I may describe what happened by the help of a figure of speech, I will say that the Church at the Reformation performed some very necessary ablutions. Where was your Church before Henry VIII.? once asked a stump orator at a Liderationist meeting. Where was your face before you washed it? instantly demanded a wit in the audience. The reply to the latter question would be (which did not come from the stump orator), Behind the dirt! The Church during her journey down the ages has found it necessary to wash her face on ry.. more than one occasion. There are other institutions, too, who have not been harmed by an occasional swill. What about the Baptist denomination? Did it not profit by the great swish-swash of the "Down-Grade" controversy? Mr. John sarcastically animadverts upon what he describes as the claims of my school to be the sole teachers of his- tory. I never made that claim, and. I am not aware that anybody of my school does. But we do claim the right, in defence of our principles, to appeal to history, and we claim that we, of all people, have the least to fear from the results of honest historical research. But your correspondent, sir. is evidently afraid to accept a morsel at the hand of a Levite," and I therefore invite him to < £ read, mark, and inwardly digest" the following paragraph which I cull from Hansard's Parliamentary Debates for 1895. The speaker is Mr. Asquith, the present Prime Minister, and the words are part of a verbatim report of a speech he made in the House of Commons on March 21st, when introducing the Dis- establishment Bill of that year. Here is the paragraph—Mr. Asquith's own .words: "I hold very strongly that it is an historical fallacy to represent the Church of England as ever having been a mere offshoot and dependency of the Church of Rome. I think the whole of our mediaeval history shows first of all that our Kings, then our Parliaments, as-soon as thev acquired a dominant position, .kept a tight grip of the government of the Church refused to allow the intrusion of any foreign ver, or any outside Ecclesiastical authority in tu-C regulation "of our National Church; anr! in the Con.i+^ons of clarendon, the Statutes of Provisors, and a hundred Other Acts of Parliament, the State in this country has insisted that the posi- tion of the' Church, its status, privileges and endowments should be kept consti- tutionally within the control of the supreme "authority of the Crown and Par- liament. We are often referred to the question of the legislation of the Refor- mation. It follows from what I have alreadv said that I am not one of those who think, as used to be currently assumed, that the legislation of Henry VIII. transferred the privileges and endowments of a National Establishment I from the Church of Rome to the Church of England. I believe that view rests upon imperfect historical information. I am quite prepared to admit, what I believe the best authorities of history now assert, that there has been amidst all these changes and developments a sub- stantial identity and continuity of exist- ence in our National Church from earliest history down* to the present time." These, sir, are the words of the Prime Minister—words of one who is most assuredly qualified to make a pronounce- ment upon any problem of history. But oh, the humour of it all! Mr. John at variance with his own standards —or, at least, with his own standard- bearer Had not he better hasten to St. Stephens and administer a sound thrashing to the great leader of the "greatest Parliament of Modern Times"? Or had he not, at least, better try to teach the great man a little bit of Church History ? But I am forgetting; the Rev. S. B. John is great on Acts of Parliament. Let us see, then, what these hare to say on the matter. In the Act Forbidding Papal Dispensation," 25 Henry, cap. 21, clause 34 says: Provided always, that this Act, nor any thing or things therein contained, shall be hereafter internreted or expounded, that your grace [the King], your nobles and subjects, intend, by the same, to decline or vary from the con- gregation of Christ's Church in any things concerning the very articles of the Catholic Faith of Christendom." For lack of space I must content myself with this one quotation, but I may refer my opponent to the following Acts, all of which contain clauses setting forth dis- tinctly the avowed determination of Par- liament to abide by the Catholic Faith: —24 Henry, cap. 12; 25 Henry, cap. x9; 25 Henry, cap. 20; 31 Henry, cap. 14. All of these Acts may be read in extenso in Gee and Hardy's Original Documents Illustrative of History." Leaving the main issue, let me now deal with some of the smaller matters of Mr. John's two letters. The education question I shall not touch; that is an- other important subject, but it is one with which I have never at any time concerned myself a great deal. I leave the solution of the education problem to our educational experts, and I fancy, judging from his correspondence, that Mr. John had better do the same thing. In his first letter Mr. John casts mud at the Church because she at one time perse- cuted those who differed from her. I regret that I did not notice this bit of dirt in my former reply. I grant readily that she did persecute, but dqes not he know that every other denomination did the same thing when it had the chance? Has he not read of the crimes of the Anabaptists of Munster ? Has he for- gotten that Calvin burnt Severus? Has he never read of what the Presbyterians and the Independents did under Crom- well ? The Puritans who emigrated to New England "—so remarks a cynic- as soon as they landed fell on their knees, and then on the natives." People in those days had not learnt how to tolerate one another's opinions, but must needs burn or imprison those who differed from them, when they had the power to do it. We do not burn people on account of their views in these days; we may call them hypocrites," and similar nice names, and we may even try to rob them, or such like small things—but burn them, no! our convictions are not strong enough for that. Mr. John's knowledge of Roman theology is evidently a bit weak, for stans pede in uno it has no chance to take exercise. His knowledge of Anglican theology is weaker still, and is without a leg at all. He seems to have read our Articles of Religion sometime or other, and somehow or anyhow, but does not seem to be capable of distin- guishing between things that differ. The distinction between Sacraments of the Gospel and Sacraments of the Church is a wee bit too subtle for even his intellect. He certainly has never dreamt that there exists such a thing as The Second Book of Homilies," in which Confirmation, Penance, Matrimony, Orders, and Anoint- ing are termed Sacraments." There is one other small matter which I forgot in my former reply. Mr. John asked me whether I endorsed the opinions of a certain correspondent in my Parish Magazine. He is so persistent in his demand for an answer that he has again asked the question in his last letter. Really, sir, he is very funny! Too funny to be edifying I am afraid. Lest, how- ever, he should have a nasty neuropathic attack through over-anxiety about the matter, I will without further delay answer him. No, I do not. Did he ever know of an editor, outside of Russia; who held himself responsible for the opinions of his correspondents? I am no more responsible for the opinions of contri- butors to the correspondence column of my Parish Magazine than is he for the opinions of his deacons, and I pro- bably have smaller reason to be afraid of them. But hold! I havê been again indulging in a canter on my Ecclesiastical high horse." Let me come down to lower levels. History and ratiocination are subjects that are too lofty for the reach of an ordinary human being. Let me, for a change, have a penny ride on a brown donkey. I shall then, at least, be sure of good company. Whither shall we wend? Suppose we go to the more acces- sible, if less attractive, regions of plain English Grammar. Here are some delectable tit-bits for our edification! [Be tender with the casket, Mr. Editor, it is out of Mr. John's own cabinet.] (1) "I am well aware what the Anglo- Catholics claim, but I want proofs. Let us subject his claim to the judgment of history." (2,) Further, we know that Church and State were so closely joined that the great Hooker, in Eccles. Polity, Book viii. sect. 2. makes citizenship and Church- manship identical." (3) How. then, can there be 'con- tinuity between submission to and rejec- tion of Rome ? (4) He defines continuity as consist- ing of five points, and makes a claim for oneness with Rome and herself at all periods." (That is a veritable gem!) (5) Now, Rome has seven sacraments, but Anglicans only two, Baptism and Lord's Supper (Articles xxv.), and rejects Confirmation," &c. (6) but Anglican Articles con- demn it as repugnant to Scripture,' and Superstition (Articles xxviii.)." (7) I should have thought that such an immaculate historical authority would strive to give to historical terms their historical meaning." (Another gem! Mr. John insists upon picking a quarrel not TVith the parson, but also with the tenses)- I (8) The loss of one non- Catholic." (9) As the fountain then to the stream, so is our Catholicity to theirs." (10) different to (Has the poor preposition "from" also offended Mr. John?) There are seventeen other similar gems. Strung together, what a sparkling chaplet of syntactical felicity they make! Bold, indeed, would the writer be who laid claim to immaculateness of style. Equally bold is the writer who rushes to the Press before he has mastered the elementary grammar of the language in which he

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writes. Dispensing with raillery, in all soberness I say that if the readers of this paper are prepared to take their lessons in history and logic from a gentleman who writes English in the manner of the above quotations, then I have done with them—I give them up as hopeless. Now, sir, I am grossly offensive, I know; but then, I happen to be one of the "hypocrites," and Mr. John, who is one of the dear "Saints," will meekly and composedly pocket the insult and turn the other cheek also. Pro Deo et Ecel-esia.-I remain, sir, yours, &c., WM. MEREDITH MORRIS. Clydach Vale, Nov. 22nd, 1909. P.S:—I have just received the follow- ing reply from the Archbishop — Lambeth Palace, S.E., 22nd November, 1909. Dear Sir,—You tell me that I am quoted by some controversialist (you do not name him) as saying that the Church of England came into existence at the Reformation. Pray ask the writer of such a statement to show me where or when I have ever made an allegation so contrary to fact. I supposed that that ignorant distortion of history had long been abandoned by all reasonably edu- cated men.—I am, yours very truly, "RANDALL CANTUAR. To the Rev. W. Meredith Morris." The original of the above will be left for a week with the Editor, where any- one asking for it may see it. His Grace of Canterbury has bv this time, perhaps, read Mr. John's letter, and is no doubt much amused at the amount of reason- able education (!) displayed therein. W. M. M.