The North Wales Weekly News

The Fate of Llysfaen and Maenan. The tug-of-war between the counties of Car- narvonshire and of Denbighshire for the pos- session of the parish of Llysfaen was continued at the County Buildings, Colwyn Bay, on Fri- day. There was again a large attendance of the persons interested. Sir Frederick Low, K.C., and Mr. Ellis Jones Griffith, M.P., again appeared for Denbighshire, who were the ap- plicants, and Mr. Ernest Pollock, K.C., M.P., and Mr. T. E. Morris appeared in opposition on behalf of the Carnarvonshire County Authority, and Mr. E. R. Davies, Pwllheli, appeared in opposition on behalf of the Parish Council. Mr. James Amphlett (Clerk) represented the Colwyn Bay and Colwyn District Council. At Wednesday's sitting numerous witnesses were called on behalf of the Denbighshire authority. EDUCATION DIFFICULTIES. The first witness called on Friday was the Rev. John Edwards, Chairman of the Colwyn Bay Education Committee, who said that Llys- faen was a parish in the middle of the Colwyn Bay school district. There were two Council schools at Colwyn, another at Llanelian, and another at Llanddulas, and Llysfaen children attended each of these schools. The Llysfaen school did not serve any area outside Llysfaen itself. Alt the Colwyn Council School there were 309 children on the books, and out of this number there were u6 from Llysfaen. In the (Colwyn Church School there were 148 on the books, and 50 of these were from Llysfaen. At the Higher Grade School, Colwyn Bay, there were 160 on the books, and 17 came from Llys- faen. There were 66 on the books at Llanelian, and 17 Llysfaen children attended here. There was a total of 683 children on the books of these schools, and 200 of them were Llysfaen children. He understood also that there were 49 children from Llysfaen attending the Llan- ddulas school, so that made a total of 249 children attending the Denbighshire schools from Llysfaen. This was undoubtedly a disad- vantage, because they as an Attendance Com- mittee could not deal direct with the children, but had to communicate with the Carnarvon- shire attendance officer, who lived1, at Llan- dudno. Wilen. the Denbighshire officer went to see the Llysfaen people, he was told that he had nothing to do with them, although he lived within a hundred yards of the boundary. Owing to the inclusion of the Llysfaen, children, the schools at Colwyn were overcrowded, and they had to procure temporary premises in which they accommodated 74 infants. The question of secondary education was very serious. There was a Higher Grade School at Colwyn Bay, which clfid secondary work, and there was a County School at Abergele, both of which were more accessible to the children than Llandudno, which was the nearest secondary school. To get to Llandudno, the children would have to leave before 8 a.m., and would be about 50 minutes in the train. He considered that Llan- dudno could not serve the district of Llysfaen,. Replying to Mr. Pollock, the witness said he took it from counsel that the average attendance in Carnarvonshire was the record for England and Wales. He had heard that the Carnarvon authority proposed erecting a new school in Llysfaen, but he did not think that would re- lieve the overcrowding in the Colwyn schools, because the bulk of the population was in Col- wyn, and they would not go up to Penmaen- rhos. Mr. Pollock: If only the children of Pen- maen attended it was no use building a school there ? Witness: No. And it would be a piece of folly on the part of Carnarvonshire to erect it? Witness It would be. Counsel: Well, that is frank enough. Replying to Mr. E. R. Davies, the witness said there was an increased attendance since the appointment of permanent attendance officers. The Llandudno officer was not in di- rect touch with the school. There were five scholarships given, annually for three years in the Higher Grade School, but Llysfaen children could not compete for them because the Den- bighshire authority would not be justified in awarding them to Carnarvonshire children. Replying to Sir Frederick, witness said that half of the cost of the proposed new school at Llysfaen by the Carnarvonshire authority would fall on the parish. Edward Bithell, the Denbighshire attendance officer, also gave evidence of the difficulty in supervising the attendance of the Llysfaen children at school, and also the difficulty there was when the parents were prosecuted. SHOP HOURS. T. I I. Morgan, Vice-Chaarman of the Colwyn Bay Council, gave evidence as to the main roads, and said there were parts of main roads of both counties intersecting. It was purely a muddle. It was also an absurdity with regard to licensing. He also agreed with the evidence given as to the question of education. Replying to Mr.- James Amphlett, ,the witness said he was Secretary of the Tradesmen's As- sociation., and there were shops adjoining each other in Colwyn, one being in Denbigh and the other in Carnarvon. There was a difficulty with regard to the Shop Houirs Act, which had been put into foroe. Owing to the anomaly, he had to prepare two petitions to get the closing order into effect at Old Colwyn. The witness was cross-examined by Mr. Pol- lock with regard to the rates of Colwyn Bay. He had heard complaints about Carnarvonshire roads not being watered, but had not heard amy complaints about the Denbighshire roads. George Bevan, J.P., ex-Chairman of the Col- wyn Bay Council, corroborated, and in reply to Mr. Amphlett said that the local Council was the largest contributing authority to the Den- bighshire County Council. R. J. Lewis, London House, Old Colwyn, said his house was in the parish of Llysfaen, but he was desirous that the transfer should be effected, because he felt it would be an ad- vantage to the place, for at present they were like an' island, and that caused inconvenience and trouble. With regard to the main road, they had been for six weeks without a man near the CarnarvonsHire road. Replying to Mr. Amiphlett, the witness said that his next door neighbour, who was in Den- bighshire, got the road cleaned and watered. Replying to Mr. Pollock, he said he believed the rates would be about the same if the change was effected. Cross-examined by Mr. E. R. Davies, he said he did not know that the county rate for Den- bighshire was higher by IS. 2d. than Carnarvont- shire. Sir Frederick here said he had forgotten to ask the witness about a petition. Witness said he took the petition round and got a large number of signatures to it, and Mr. B'ithell obtained the resit. Co-unsel read out the petition, which prayed to the Local Government Board to transfer the parish. Mr. Pollock cross-emmined the witness at Length with regard to the petition, and asked where D. Mac. Nicoll lived. Witness He has an office at Old Colwyn,, but I believe he lives in Llanelian. Mr. Amphlett volunteered the statement that Mr. Mac. Nicoll had a large estate office, and was the agemlt of the largest estate in. Colwyn Bay. Mr. Pollock: Well, he is only a 620 rate- J payer, which is comparatively small. Perhaps the rate collector will tak-e note that he is under rated'. (Laughter.) In reply to Mr. E. R. Davies, witness said he was asked to take the petit ion round by the Clerk of the Denbighshire County Council. Edward Roberts, assistant overseer and rate collector for Ltysfaea, said the poor rate for I this year was 4s. in the £ and the special sanitary rate came to 5s. 6d. in the Z. Mr. Ellis Griffith said that the poor rate at Colwyn Bay was 3s. 8d. in the Z, and the gen- eral district rate, including water, 5s. iod., mak- ing the same total as the Llysfaen parish. W. G. Dodd, J.P., Chairman of the Denbigh- shire Education Committee, and a member of the County Council, said that in his opinion it was most desirable that Llysifaen should be transferred. What led him to that conclusion was that the parish, which was in the centre of Denbighshire, was most unfair to the county, because they would have to supply the educa- tion for the children of Llysfaen, who also ran the risk of being excluded from the Denbigh- shire schools. He agreed that the question of the policing should be under the complete con- trol of the Denbighshire authority. This closed the case for the applicants, sub- ject to the right to call members of the County Council, who were meeting at Wrexham that day. THE OPPOSITION. Mr. Pollock then opened the case in opposi- tion on behalf of the county of Carnarvon. He contended, in the course of his speech, that there had been no proof that the parish had been in any way neglected or had in any way suffered at the hands of the Carnarvonshire ad- ministration. Geographically it was more readily administered from Carnarvon than from Ruthin, owing to the better railway communi- cation] with the former place. There was no ground, he held, for interfering with the whole structure which had been in, operation and had worked well, and he suggested that the diffi- culties which had arisen as to the policing of the parish had rather been fostered by Den- bighshire with a view to the present applica- tion. He also said that the allegation of neglect on the part of Carnarvonshire police in regard to cases of swine fever last November, as to which evidence was given by a police constable on Wednesday, was quite groundless, inasmuch as in these cases the instant the information was given to the inspector at Llandudno he ad. vised the Board of Agriculture, this being the whole of his duty in the matter. When he had called his evidence he would ask the Inspector to report against the proposed transfer of this parish. Mr. E. R. Daviies, on behalf of the Llysfaen Parish Council, said that with regard to the geographical position, whatever was urged in support of the application that day was urged with the same force in 1897, when' a smikif application was made to the Local Government Board. The only change was that the popula- tion had gone up by between 500 and 600, and that the rateable value was something between £ 2,000 and £3,000 more. On behalf of the parish, this Parish Council unanimously took the view that it would be detrimental to the parish that it should be transferred to, Denbigh- shire, and he also applied on behalf of the parish meeting, who- also t4aok the same view. He should like to emphasise the fact that the Denbigh County Council had only called one resident ratepayer in the parish in support of the application. It was quite true that a peti- tion had been sent in, but this was signed by many non-residents, who lived in the urbali dis- trict of Colwyn Bay. He intended putting in a petition on. behalf of the Parish Council signed by 188 ratepayers in opposition, to the applica- tion. The only complaint of any kind made to the County Council was with respect to the policing by the Conway Rural Council. He (Mr Davies) considered it would be a dangeroUis principle for any great public department to say tha.t on the application of a covetous authority a whole parish was to be transferred from one county to another. He thought the people of the parish were those really to be considered in this matter. The Rev. J. Edwards gave evi- dence as to the educational facilities, but he was resident at Colwyn Bay, and was anxious, as Chairmam of the School managers, to extend his territory. It was very singular that the administration of the educational affairs of Denbigh was not really directed from the county. They had to go to Chester to find a suitable and convenient centre, and those were the people who said they were desirous of tak- ing over the administration of the educational affairs of this parish. The view of the Parish Council and parishioners was that the county rate of Denbigh during the last three years had been higher by is. 2d. in the f, spread over the three years, than it was in Carnarvonshire, and that in the parish of Llysfaen represented a sum of £375. The Inspector: So that if this parish is trasferred they w.ill have to pay (375 a year more. Mr. Davies said that was in regard to the county rate alone. It would be entirely to the disadvantage of the pani'sh to transfer it. He ventured to say that the Local Government Board, after hearinig the report, would say that no case had been made out in support of the application. The first witness called was Mr. J. T. Ro- berts, Deputy Clerk of the Peace for Carnarvon- shire, and Clerk to the County Council, and he explained at length the procedure with refer- ence to the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act. While the county was the authority charged with dealing with sheep scab under the Act, it was the Board of Agriculture that acted in cases of swine fever. He also gave evidence of the borrowing powers of Denbighshire, which he gleaned from the Deputy Clerk of the Den- bighshire County Council at a joint committee re the purchase of the Talycafn Bridge. In cross-examination, he said that the police in Carnarvonshire had administered the Act in Llysfaen. Every constable in Carnarvonshire was appointed an inspector under the Act. Inspector Owen, Llandudno, was responsible for the administration of the Act in Llysfaen. Sir Frederick: Where is the inspector at Llandudno- to get his information from? Witness In the locality, and also from the Denbigh police, who are in authority there. In reply to Mr. Amphlett, the witness said that if there happened to be a prosecution under the Act, the case would be heard at Colwyn Bay. He would not give an undertaking to produce the appointment of Inspector Owen, Llandudno, as Inspector under the Act. Inspector Owen, Llandudno, produced the re- cords of the notifications last November of swine fever, and said that the proper steps were im- mediately taken. The veterinary inspector under the Board of Agriculture lived at Carnarvon, and had charge of three or four counties, and that might have caused the delay complained of. Cross-examined, he said he had never wit- nessed sheep dipping in Llysfaen, as he had never been asked to go. Mr. Amphlett: Do you patrol Llysfaen at all?-No, but we go there to. serve summonses. Mr. Amphlett: But there is a fee attached to that, is there not?—No, there is not. (Laugh- ter.) John Edward Greaves, Lord Lieutenant of Carnarvonshire since 18S6, said he had taken a deep interest in all county matters for 25 or 30 years, and he considered there was no serious difficulty in the working of Llysfaen in the county of Carnarvon. He could not see any advantage that would accrue from altering the

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Abergele Sparks. THE GREAT RACE.—The voters of Aber- gele are in for a lively time of it from now until about 9 o'clock on the evening of Monday, April 4th, when the result of the Urban District Council election will be declared by Mr. Crabbe ,from the gallery window of the Town. Hall. Hip, hip! for a start. And now for a few words about the fight and the fighters, of whom there are eight for four seats—four Liberals and four Tories. And please bear in mind that this elec- tion for some inexplicable reason or other is to be fought on absolutely political lines-a thing unheard of before since the inception of the Council. That being so, there should not be the slightest shadow of a doubt about the result, because when it comes to a fair and square poli- tical contest in Abergele, the Tories must in- evitably find themselves botttom clog's at the finish. This kind of talk sounds a bit funny in connection, with a district council election, but our good friend's the enemy having called for the tune by way of a direct challenge they must not blame the Liberals if they move heaven, earth, sky, and Peel-street in order to gain a victory at the polls. Here are the starters and their colours:—Liberals (retiring members): Messrs. Edward Williams, J.P. (present Chairman of the Council), Isaac Morris, W. Humphreys Jones, and Harry E. Thomas. Tories: Messrs. H. Bedford, A. P. Leigh, Robert Pickup, and Thomas Evans—all duly nominated on Thurs- day. So. don't forget. An Old Colwyn lady writes to ask me to with- draw the remarks I made re tracts last week. I must gently but firmly decline to do anything of the kind. I would rather withdraw tracts from circulation. I said nothing deprecatingly about tracts as tracts. What I was really trying to ex- plain was that to give a tract to a poverty- stricken man lying on a bed of sickness was rank hyprocisy. Every man and woman with half- an-ounce of brains knows as well as I do that there is no sacrifice in the idiotic act of giving a stupidly-worded tract to a person on the verge of starvation. You might as well throw a bar of iron to a drowning man and tell him to save himself with it. Fill the people's stomachs with food and drink first, and then give them as many tracts as you can carry in a mail-cart. There is in these controversial days much talk about the depopulation of the rural districts of Great Britain, and perhaps it would not be un- interesting to local readers if I gave them this week a few particulars on that head concerning Abergele and the surroun.diirug parishes from the year 1831 to 1901—a period of 70 years. Here they are: — Years 1831 1851 1871 1891 1901 Abergele (Urban & Rural) 2506 2855 3193 3186 3150 Bettws-yn-Rhos 912 895 796 739 665 Llanddulas 307 575 630 680 695 Llanfairtalhaiarn 1355 1386 1155 1044 954 St. George 376 452 308 289 264 Whereas the population in the urban district of Abergele increased by 102 between 1891 and 1901, the decrease in the rural district was no leas than 138 during the same period. Bettws with a decrease of 74, and Llanfair with 90, also looks discouraging. SEARCHLIGHT.

Infants' School Treat. MR. BITHELL'S LEAVE TAKING. On Friday afternoon the children and teachers of the infants. school, Colwyn Bay, were enter- tained to tea by Mr. Edward Bithell, the school attendance officer, who will shortly leave for Wrexham. There were also present the Rev4 John Edwards, Chairman of the Colwyn Bay District Education Committee; Mrs. J. Berth Jones, and Mrs. T. M. Jones. The arrangements for the tea were undertaken by Mr. and Mrs. Bithell. assisted by Miss Owen (headmistress). the teachers, and other ladies. At the close, the Rev. John Edwards remarked on Mr. Bithell s qualities as a most efficient at- tendance officer, and said he had rendered most valuable services to the ratepayers. From the attendance record of Colwyn Bay School Dis- trict being one of the lowest in Denbighshire he had raised it to the highest. Mr. Bithell would take with him to Wrexham the best wishes of I children, teachers, and parents, all of whom would hope he might prove as successful in his new sphere. (Applause.) Mrs. T. M. Jones proposed a vote of thanks to Mr. and Mrs. Bithell for their kindness in in- viting those present to the tea, and Mrs. J. Berth Jones, who gave some interesting remin- iscences of Colwyn Bay in its early days, seconded. Mr. Bithell said that his reason for entertain- ing the infants' school was because that school was most representative of the whole of Colwyn Bay, and thereby he might come into touch with the parents. (Hear, hear.) When he came to Colwyn Bay, in 1905. the average attendance at one of the schools was but 200 out of the 300 scholars on the rolls. At present the same school had an average attendance of 290, with 3) 2 on the rolls. (Hear, hear.) During the time he had been in Colwyn Bay he had known some sixty teachers, and had never had the slightest misunderstanding with any one of them, and it was thanks in no small measure to their co- operation that the attendance records were now so satisfactory. He hoped that the same kind- ness might be shown his successor as he him- self had experienced. (Applause.) Later in the evening a concert was held, at which many of the children's parents were pre- sent. After a display by Miss Louie Green- field's class, Miss Ethel Dunning's class gave a fan dance. A dialogue between children tra ned by Miss Boyd followed, and Miss Dunning's class performed a drill song. Renderings of Killarney and The Flag Song" followed, a decidedly clever programme being brought to a close with the singing of Hen Wlad fy Nhadau." Miss Boyd acted as accompanist. The Rev. John Edwards closed the proceed- ings with some words of advice to the children, who subsequently gave three hearty cheers for Mr. Bithell.

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I geography so as to include Llysfaen in Den- bighshire. He felt certain that the polic-ing of the parish could be efficiently administered by I the Camarvonshre police, who had already ap- plied to increase their force. Cross-examined, he said he would not go so far as to say that the policing could be better administered by Carnarvon than Denbigh. Evan Evans, the Carnarvon Counity Surveyor, said that Llysfaen could be worked with economy and efficiency by the Carnarvonshire officials. The Carnarvon roads cost on an aver- age ^34 per mile, and the average for the whole county of Denbigh was £5° per mile. There was no. difficulty about getting macadam for the roads at Llysfaen. He could get to this parish quicker from Carnarvon, where he lived, than they could get from Ruthin. He had never re- ceived any complaint with respect to the road. Replying to Sir Frederick, he said that the actual cost Off keeping this two' miles of road in repair was £40 per mile. M. H. Williams, County Treasurer, gave evi- dence of the assessable value of the county. T. B. Farringtoni, engineer, Llandudno, was called, and gave evidence of the works he had carried out in the parish of Llysfaen during the past 20 years, the total expenditure of which amounted to about £ 14,000. In reply to Mr. Amphlett, the witness said that the water of the Cowlyd Board had to pass through Denbighshire mains to get to Llysfaen. Evan R. Davies, Secretary of the Carnarvon.- shire Education Committea, gave evidence re- garding the educational facilities of Llysfaen. He said that a great number of children from Carnarvonshire attended the Abergele County School, and according to the scheme, if the county authority of Carnarvon offered suffi- cent to cover the fees of the Abergele School, they would be accepted, the same as if the children were financed by their parents. The children of Llysfaen were in a better position than children in other rural districts, as they would be able to make the choice of three schools. There was no complaint about the school accommodation of Llysfaen. umtil 1908, and the County Education Authority held an inquiry, after which it was decided to erect a new Council School at Penmaenrhos to accom- modate 200 children. The negotiations for a site lasted about two years, amd at last they had provisionally entered into a contract for a site, and the school would be ready in the course of this year. All the Carnarvonshire schools wer-i buiLt in such a way that they could be enlarged with very little additional cost. Replying to Sir Frederick, the witness said Colwyn Bay should be aninexed to Carnarvon.. shire, and he had always held that view. (Laughter.) The cost of the new school at Penmaenrhos would be between £4,000 and £ 5,000, and half of this would be chargeable to Llysfaen. Mr. Amphlett also questioned the witness to the site of the proposed new school. Other witnesses were called,, including resi- dents in Llysfaen, who obtained a large number of signatures to a memorial against the proposed transfer, mostly from electors in the more rural .position of the area. Mr. William Lupton, who, with his brother, owns the lime quarries of Kneeshaw Lupton and Co., gave evidence in opposition. He came to the inquiry with an open mind, and felt that no sufficienit gtrounds for any change had been made out. This closed the case in respect of Llysfaen. THE CLOSING DAY. STORY OF NABOTH'S VINEYARD. On Saturday evening the long inquiry was brought to a conclusion after the delivery of vigorous addresses by the leading counsel and the solicitors appearing in the case. Witnesses were called as to the petition against the transfer of Llysfaen, one of them being Mr. A. E. Watson, of that parish. He said that, with a colleague, he was responsible for the obtaining of 92 signatures. The people all signed with the utmost willingness except one person. Mr. Pollock And what about that one man with whom you had difficulty ? The Witness It was a woman in that case. (Laughter.) Now, Mr. Watson, how did you manage to get the best of that woman ?—Admitted, sir, it was a difficult point. (Laughter.) We over- came her by reading the last paragraph in the petition, that the county rates in Denbighshire have been higher than they have been in Car- narvonshire. (Laughter.) Then it was the question of the homely bud- get ?—Exactly. She is a widow, I believe, and a little shopkeeper. Replying to Sir F. Low, Mr. Watson said he would put the whole matter in a nutshell. It was the old story of Naboth's vineyard. Mr. Pollock You believe in the admonition in the Bible of Woe to them that add field to field." The Witness Yes, that is when it is done improperly. Mr. H. Hughes, the Parish Clerk of Llysfaen, re-called, produced the minute book of the Par- ish Meeting and also of the Council. He stated that the Council last June passed a resolution against the proposal, and that the parishioners passed a similar resolution in December, and on the 3rd instant. Mr. M. H. Williams, County Treasurer for Car- narvonshire, having produced statistics as to the rates, assessments, &c., Mr. Robert Evans, Mohrcroft, Llysfaen, for many years the County Councillor for the parish, was called and expressed a strong preference for remaining in Carnarvon- shire. MAENAN AND ABBEY. Sir F. Low then opened his case with regard to Maenan and Abbey. Mr. R. B. Adams, County Surveyor for the Western Division, and Mr. Morris Roberts, Sur- veyor to the Llanrwst Rural District Council, spoke as to the inconvenience of there being pieces of the Llanrwst main road belonging to another county, while Superintendent Beres- ford stated that the Denbighshire constables had to cross Maenan in their patrols, but had no authority there. For the last four years the Trefriw officer had not visited the Denbighshire officers at the conference point on the parish as he formerly did. Mr. T. Rogers Jones, auctioneer, Llanrwst, a member of the Denbighshire County Council, stated that he frequently heard complaints from farmers in Maenan and Abbey that, owing to having to go to Trefriw for certificates sanction- ing the removal of sheep to his auction mart at Talycafn, they missed sales, and had to post- pone the taking of their sheep to the mart for a fortnight. Colone Sandbach, of Hafodunos, a landowner in the parish of Maenan, and Mr. Louis W. Jelf Petit, Vice-Chairman of Denbigh Quarter Ses- sions, whose residence is situated in Maenan, gave evidence as to the lack of police supervis- ion in that parish, and on various grounds supported the transfer. Evidence in opposition was then tendered. Mr. F. R. Davies spoke as to the provision with regard to education, claiming that it was in every respect satisfactory. He also explained how the Intermediate School at Llanrwst came ,to be regarded by his county as a joint school. Thirteen parishes on the Denbighshire border were assigned to the Llanrwst school district, and 5.3 per cent. of the funds for intermediate education were allocated to that district. A contribution of /50 only was made towards the school, buta large sum was expended in scholar- ships. Moreover, the endowment of Sir Toh.1 Wynne, of Gwydyr, which was appropriated by the school, was a Carnarvonshire endowment: The interest of Carnarvonshire in the school was, controlled by a supplementary scheme, which was binding upon Denbighshire. A number of other witnesses were called in I opposition, including Mr. J. T. Roberts, the Clerk to the Carnarvonshire County Council; Mr. R. E. Thomas. Clerk to the Maenan Parish

Council Mr. John Jones, the Chairman of the Council and Mr. D. G. Jones, District Coun- cillor for the parish. A memorial in oppostion was also submitted, which had been signed by every ratepayer in Maenan and Abbey except Mr. Jelf Petit, his gardener, Colonel Sandbach, and one or two others in the upper part who could not be found. Mr. Pollock addressed the Inspector and sub- mitted that no case had been made out for the transfer, and Mr. E. R. Davies and Mr. Davies Jones followed. The inquiry terminated with a vote of thanks to the Inspector.