The North Wales Times

HOUSE-BREAKING AT GYFFYLLIOG. Thomas Jones. 19 years of age, was charged, in custody, with having, on the 30th of January, broken into and entered the dwelling house of one David Jones, farmer, Votty Braich Ddu, and stealing therefrom a gun, valued at f2, and a razor. Hannah Jones, wife of David Jones, said that on Saturday morning, she left the house and locked the door. When leaving, she saw the gun hanging in its usual place. On returning in the evening, she found the gun had gone. She saw the prisoner near the house in the course of the day, but was not close enough to see whether he had the gun in his possession. She identified the gun produced. P.C. Davies said that on Monday evening, the 1st inst., lie received information that some- body had entered the house called Votty Braich Ddu. On the following Wednesday, he went with Sergeant Woollam to Pengwyn, and had a conversation with the prisoner. He asked him where the gun and razor were, to which Prisoner replied that he had lost the razor, but said the gun was at his home at Penybryn. They asked him to accompany them there, but, before reaching the place, witness left the Ser- geant and prisoner, and went forward to get the gun. Prisoner's mother handed it to him. On the following day, he went to Votty to examine the place, and found that the window in the bed chamber which had been built up With sod, had been tampered with. There were signs that the sods had been removed. There 'Were no wooden frames to the window. Sergeant Woollam corroborated the evidence of last witness. Prisoner told him that the way got into the house was by removing the sods the window. He left the gun in an out-house until the next day. Prisoner was brought to Ruthin, tnd locked up. Before being placed in the cell, cartridges, shots, &c., were found in his pockets. Prisoner was then formally charged, and committed for trial at the Quarter Sessions, to be liolden at Denbigh, April 9th, the Clerk ad- vising the Magistrates that they had no alter- native but to commit, as the case wap such a serious nature. Sergeant Woollam said the boy's fSeller was in Court. While he was at Gyffylliog, he made inquiries as to the boy's antecedents, and also as to his parents. He found he was the eldest of six children, his father being a farm la- bourer. Prisoner would not stop in his places, and ran away, in consequence of which his father thrashed him most unmercifully—in fact, he was afraid to go home last week. The father was then put in the box, and asked whether he would become bail on behalf of prisoner He said he would, and the Bench decided to have two sureties in 910 each. Prisoner was removed in custody, until the bail was forthcoming. < THE TRAMP WAS DISGUSTED.' Thomas Mulligan, a cattle drover, of no fixed abode, was charged by P.C. Windsor, Llan- degla, with being drunk on the highway at Llandegla, on the 14i;h November, at ten o'clock in the evening. The officer stated that defendant was very drunk, and was cursing and swearing. He was so noisy that the tramp who accompanied him was disgusted (laughter). Fined 10s. and costs. DISGRACEFUL CONDITION OF A YOUNG WOMAN. SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS AGAINST THE POLICE. Sarah Ann Jones, described as a married woman, and a native of Liverpool, was charged in custody by Sergeant Woollam, with having being drunk and disorderly in Llanfair Street, on the previous Saturday night. Sergeant Woollam said that, on Saturday night, at 12 p.m., he was standing near the Anchor Inn with P.C. Bythel. Their attention was attracted up Llanfair Street by a woman shouting. They went in that direction, and found prisoner standing by the door of a cot- tage. She was very drunk. He put some questions to her, but she would not answer, and told him to find out where she had come from. She was wet through, and evidently had been in the river. Her petticoats were on her arms, and they were wringing wet. He directed P. C. Bythel to take hold of her, but the moment he did so, she shouted I Murder,' dropped on the ground, and raised the street up. He un- derstood her husband was a hawker, and a native of Liverpool. They arrived in the town on Friday, and stayed at lodgings in Mwrog Street. They went there also on Saturday, but were too drunk to be taken in. A man who heard the woman shouting went to her, but received a smack in his face by her hus- band John Phillip Jones, blacksmith, who volun- teered himself as a witness, said that when he was going to bed on Saturday night, he heard cries of Murder, murder.' He opened the win- dow, and saw the poor woman (prisoner) being pulled about by P, C. Bythel. Witness shouted, v 'Don't hurt her,' to which Bythel replied/You mind your business and go to hell.' The Clerk Was it not Go to bed ?' Sergeant Woollam That is the more likely, j sir. f Witness: No, sir Go to hell' (laughter). They were hammering the poor woman awful. The Sergeant: Where was this woman ? Witness By the door. The Sergeant: Was she not 100 yards up the street? Witness: No. The Sergeant What were we doing when you saw us ? Witness: She was on the floor, and there were marks to be found afterwards. The Sergeant: Where were you? Witness Up stairs. The Sergeant: Then how do you know what took place ? Witness: Well, did I not open the window ? The Sergeant: Were the lamps lit ? Witness Yes, your lamps. The Sergeant: Were the street lamps lib ? Witness: No. The Sergeant: Was the moon shining ? Witness: No. The Sergeant Was it dark ? Witness: No, not very dark. The Sergeant: What did you see ? Witness I saw you and Bythel dragging her about, and there are more witnesses to prove this, too. The Sergeant Call them, call them. In reply to Mr. Lumley, witness said the struggle took place underneath his window. The Sergeant said he and Bythel were the only persons on the street until the woman be- gan to shout. Mr. Lumley Wa.s the woman screaming be- fore you got hold of her ? The Sergeant: She was shouting before we went to her, and when I told the officer to take her to the lock-up, she dropped on the floor, and shouted I Murder.' Mr. Lumley She was-shouting, and you con sidered that to be disorderly ? The Sergeant Yes Mr. Lumley Were there any other people in the street ? The Sergeant replied that the people came out to the street after the woman began to scream. There was no one when he found the prisoner shouting in the first instance. It was not by witness' house at all. Witness Yes, it was. Was I not looking at you all the time ? The Warden You have given your evidence. Go down, and hold your tongue. Robert Roberts; said he was in Llanfair Street on the night in question. It was rather too dark to see the woman. The Sergeant If you could not see, what are you doing here ? Witness But I could hear. I could hear your sticks going. I was standing opposite the White Bear gate, when Mr. Woollam and Bythel passed. Mr. Woollam was next to me. I said Good night' to them. They went along, and between the house of John Thomas Hughes ap.d another house, this poor woman was crying out 'Sam,' who was her husband, I believe. They (the police) went to her. I stopped in the same position as they saw me, and they in- quired who she was, and what her husband The Sergeant: You be careful what you say- Witness: l am careful. They (the police) said to her Come with us.' She was squealing, j and then their sticks were going. And another thing, I don't say but what they were drunk The Warden: Be careful now; did you say the Sergeant was drunk?, J Mr. Lumley No, the woman was drunk. *5 Witness: \es, sir, the woman. I did not say that both policemen were drunk too. John Phillip (the previous witness) was in his win- dow, from which he dropped. I The Sergeant: Did you see us going up Llan- fair Street? Witness Yes, I.did, and I said Goodnight' to you. r The Sergeant: And before we went up, you heard a woman shouting ? Witness; Yes, she shouted five or six times. The Sergeant: Did you see us start to take, her to the lock-up ? Witness: Yes, I did. The Sergeant: Did she walk quietly? Witness She squealed, and asked what she had done. had done. The Sergeant: Did she walk quietly ? Witness: It was too dark to see, but I could hear your sticks going. I have come to swear what I saw you doing. The Sergeant: What did you see if it was too dark ? Witness I have come to say what I heard. The Warden: What do you mean by saying that the siicks were going ? Witness They were abusing the woman. A Magistrate Whose sticks were going ? Witness The two policemen. The Sergeant: Were they going very hard? Witness: Yes, you, could hear them from the Railway Bridge. The Warden asked witness what he was doing out so late that night, to which he re- plied that he was partly undressed, and had gone out when he heard the shouting. The Sergeant said if he had known that this evidence was forthcoming, he could have placed Bythel in the witness box to give evidence, and also a member of the Town Council, who heard him asking the woman questions very civilly, and trying to know something about her. She would not give him any answer. Mr. Lumley (to the prisoner): Do you com- plain of the police having ar-used you? Prisoner I was very drunk, and do not re- member anything about it. Mr. Lumley: Were there any bruises about your body ? Prisoner Only a small mark. Mr. Lumley You do not think that the pol- ice abused you ? Prisoner I was too drunk, sir. The Sergeant said he should like to know whether prisoner's husband abused her that night ? The Bench said the question could not be put. The Warden, after consulting his colleagues, said that inasmuch as she had been in jail since Saturday night, the Bench would not punish her, if she agreed to leave the town. The prisoner agreed to do, and then left the dock. THE MILITARY BALL. Mr. C. D. Phillips, of the Spread Eagle Inn, applied for an occasional license for the forth- coming military ball, and to extend the time from 9 p.m. to 5 a.m. The Bench said from 9 to 3 would be quite sufficient Mr. Phillips then asked that it be granted from 9 to 4, the usual time, but this was re- fused, and an extension from 9 to 3 was granted.

RUTHIN GRAMMAR SCHOOL AND THE WELSH EDUCATION ACT. CHARITY COMMISSION INQUIRY. A special meeting of the Ruthin Town Council was held on Friday, for the purpose of meeting Mr. L. A. Selby-Bigge, an assistant Charity Commissioner, who desired to take the opinion of the Council with reference to the question of intermediate education in the dis- trict, which comprises 12,000 inhabitants. The Ruthin Grammar School, which is mainly in the hands of the Church of England, is man- aged under a scheme issued by the Charity Commission. The Denbighshire intermediate education scheme provides for a boys' school and a girl' school at Ruthin, and the Commis- sion now asked for the observations of the local authorities as to the possibility and desirability of the establishment of the boys' school as a competing institution with the existing Grammar School The Mayor (Alder- man Ezra Roberts) presided. It was pointed out that the Council had passed a resolution in favour of both schools, but Mr. T. P. Roberts said he was positive that many of the members at the time did not understand that it meant setting up a rival school. He had been a mem- ber of the Council for 21 years, and he was sure that the town generally was against that. Dr. Hughes said he would advocate the abandonment of the boys' school provided the governing body of the Grammar School were popularised and its unsectarian character as- surcd* Mr." Ronw said that if a new boys' school were established it would be a, scandalous waste of public money. If Ruthin were polled nine- tenths of the people would support his views. The agitation for the new school was a political thing and to show how the matter had gone so tar he might mention that although there was a considerable minority of Conservatives in the Council, that minority was not allowed to have one representative on the school govern- ing body. Mr. T. H. Roberts said it was of no use hav- ing two schools, but he thought that the fees at the Grammar School should not be higher than at corresponding intermediate schools, as they were at present. Mr. G. F. Byford objected to the two schools clashing, but, with the other speakers, he was anxious that a girls' school should be establish- ed as soon as possible. The Commissioner said the Commissioners were agreed with them as to the necessity of having a girls'. school, and the objections hither- to made to the proposals sent up were solely made on business grounds. Dr. Hughes said that the Ruthin Town Coun- cil only represented 3,000 of the 12,000 resi- dents in the district, and he thought that the District Council, which represented 9,000 inha- bitants, ought to be consulted. Mr. Bigge said he had not been instructed to see the District Council, but no doubt if they wished to give him their views they could do so in writing. Dr. Hughes said it was not right that the representatives of 3,000 of the 12,000 in the district should speak for the whole district. He believed the District Council had already passed resolutions in favour of the whole scheme. Mr. Byford said he knew many of the farm- ers in the surrounding district who sent their boys to the Grammar School, and he believed they were quite satisfied with the way in which the school was managed. As was stated the day before by the Mayor at the meeting of the Grammar School governors, the present school would be acceptable to the Nonconformists of the district provided there was some alteration in the governing body. The Mayor That is the point. Mr. John Roberts asked Mr. Bigge for his interpretation of clause 7 of the scheme, which he held gave them no option but to establish two schools at once. The Commissioner declined to answer the question. What he wanted to know was, what objections were there to the present school ? Mr. John Roberts said that, speaking for himself, one objection was to the practice of the Governors of holding their meetings in private; also that the Nonconformists of Ruthin and Lianelidan, which area was orig- inally intended to be benefited, were grossly under-represented on the Governing Body. Mr. T. J. Roberts said that he could i-peak of the school as he knew it ten year? and he could say that they drilled into him the Catechism by means of which he was induced to utter falsehoods, and that certainly went against his conscience. He had dogmas and tenets drilled into him that were most certain- ly repugnant to him and to his religious views. Moreover, the education afforded was imprac- tical, and there was not the modern element of first class schools. Dr. Hughes said he did not want to be associated with the views expressed by Mr. T. J. Roberts. There was not now any grievance, either as to the religious question or as to the character cf the teaching. He did not think that Mr. Roberts's remarks should be taken as the view generally entertained among Noncon- formisbs. Mr. T. J. Roberts: It is to a large extent, sir. Dr. Hughes said that, since they were trot- ting out grievances, the chairman of ttlfe Gram- mar School Governors had stated in a pamphlet circulated round the country that it was his avowed intention to get the school converted into a purely Church of England school, and that had been the cause of a great deal of ill- feeling. Mr. T. J. Roberts said he was making certain of his facts by speaking of the school as he knew it, but it was the genera] opinion of Nonconformists in the town that a particular aspect of religion was taught in that school. The Commissioner asked Mr. Roberts whether he had ever claimed the advantages of the conscience clause. Mr. Roberts said he had not, nor had his parents, so far as he knew. The Commissioner said he did net think that the son of Nonconformist parents who had not claimed the protection of the conscience clause was entitled to say that he had grievances, be- cause lie was taught th* Church. Catechism. Mr. T. J. Roberts. On two occasions I was orced to go to church. Mr. T. P. Roberts: Well, that was a sin (laughter). The Mayor said the scheme was not well- known in the district, and that was the reason why the Governing Body should be entirely remodelled, so that each community in the dis- trict might be represented, and better arrange ments should be made for securing an equality amongst the boys of all denominations. Mr. Rouw said that if the Governing Body of the school were remodelled it would be sub- ject to the same treatment as the county school governing body, which was comprised almost entirely of one party. Mr. John Roberts: I am rather surprised at those remarks of Mr. Rouw, for he knows per- fectly well that only last Monday of all this Council unanimously re-elected a Liberal Unionist to represent them on the Governing Body of the Grammar School, and that the Chairman of those Governors is determined, so far as he possibly can, to prevent the elec- tion of any Liberal or Nonconformist on that body. The Commissioner said that political or religious considerations were irrelevant. Mr. John Roberts: I quite concur; but I think it is only right that you should know the whole of the facts. Alderman Edward Roberts said that the reports of the examiners of the Grammar School were never published, and he thought they should be. The ^Commissioner said he was making a rather minute examination of the educational work of the school, and was examining the reports pretty carefully. The proceedings closed with a vote of thanks to Mr. Bigge, who pointed out in reply that he was there to get information only, and he could in no way bind the Commissioners by any remark he had used.

INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION IN THE RUTHIN DISTRICT. CHARITY COMMISSIONERS INQUIRY. VERY soon after the Joint Education Com- mittee for Denbighshire commenced its duties, it was decided to have a Boys' and Girls' School at Ruthin, and a scheme was prepared which received the approval of the Charity Commisioners, and the Edu- cation Department, and presented to Parlia- ment including the present Grammar School as a school for boys. In the House of Lords tbisscbool wasthrownoutofthescheme by the Bishop of St. Asaph, and several other Tory Lords, with the intention of continuing it as a Church School, although it has lost that character through the action of the School Governors themselves-the Rev. the Warden of Ruthin being chairman of the board. Although the Grammar School was thrown out of the scheme, it provided for the estab- lishment of a Boys' as well as a Girls' school, and the County and Local Governing bo- dies have completed their arrangements to purchase a property called Brynhyfryd, which is in every sense very suitable for the purpose, at a valuation made by Messrs. Dew and Son, of Bangor, who the Commis- sioners appointed for the purpose. They have also made the necessary financial arrange- ments to cover the repairs and alteration of the premises, and the erection of two excel- lent schoolrooms. In fact, everything has been ready for about three months, awaiting the permission of the Commissioners to complete the purchase, and proceed with the work, a subscription list of about X400 to .£500 only being wanted-which would be guaranteed. On Friday afternoon, a special meeting of the County Governing Body for Denbigh- shire and the Local Governing Body for the Ruthin district under the Intermediate Education Scheme was held at the County Hall, Ruthin, for the purpose of meeting Mr. J. A. Selby-Bigge, the assistant commis- sioier sent down by the Charity Commis- sioners, to collect evidence as to the wishes of the district upon the question of inter- mediate education. The commissioners, in r-eply to the last application of the local governors said, inter alia, that the propo- sal to establish a County School for boys at Ruthin required, from various points of view, careful and. mature consideration, and that accordingly, before entertaining it further, they had decided to instruct an as- sistant commissioner to confer with the County Governing Body and the Local Go- vernors on the subject.' The chair was taken by Mr. Thomas Gee, the chairraan,"of the.County Governing Body, and the other members of the two authori- ties present were, the Hon. G. T. Kenyon, Dr. J. Medwyn Hughes, the Rev. the War- den of Ruthin, Mr. T. H. Roberts, Mr. John Edwards, Llanelidan, Mr. Henry Williams, the chairman of the Ruthin Board of Guard- ians, Mr. Thomas Parry, of Colwyn Bay, Mr. Edward Jones, Llanbedr farm, Mr. R. Har- ris Jones, Mr. J. Harrison Jones, Denbigh, the Rev. Issac James, Mrs. J. W. Lumley, Miss Gee, the Mayor of Ruthin, Mr. Ezra Roberts, Mrs. Davies of Abergele, and Mr. J. E. Powell, with Mr. John Roberts, clerk to the County Governing Body, and Mr. Edward Roberts, the clerk to the Ruthin Local Governors. Apologies for absence had been received from the following :—Mr. E. Hooson, Captain Griffith Boscawen, Mrs. Powell, Wrexham, and Mr. Peter Williams. At the request of the chairman, Mr. John Roberts read a letter from the Charity Commissioners, dated Dec. 23rd, 1896. of which the following is a copy :— Sir, Your letter on the 8th August, and 26th ult have been under the consideration of the com- missioners. The proposals submitted in those letters differ materially from those previously before the Commissioners, inasmuch as the former proposals contemplated a County School for Girls only at Ruthin, whereas the establishment of County Schools for Boys and Girls respectively at the place is now inten- ded. (2.) With regaid to the earlier proposals to purchase the premises known as Brynhyfryd for the purpose of the County School for Girls, I am to state that the Commissioners regard Mr. Lloyd Wiliams' report of the 18th April 1895. as sufficient evidence of the suitability of the premises so far as the site is concerned for the purpose of such a school. The report of Mr. W. D. Jones of the 22nd April 1893 (on the sanitary conditions and water supply) is less conclusively favourable, indicating some defects to be remedied, or requirements to be met before the sanitation and supply of water could be accepted by the commissioners as en- tirely and permanently satisfactory. With Mr. Dew's estimate of the value of the peemises before them, the Commissioners were in a position to deal with the question of the purchase desired alike by the School Governors and the County Governing Body. (3.) But the proposal to provide on this Bryn- hyfryd site a County School for Boys as weli as for Girls imparts into the question of the p- proval of its purchase different and important consideration. It at once reopens the question of the.suitability of the site, since what may be a g-ui site for a Girls school is not necessarily so fur a Bevs school, especially when it is in close r{.: ty to an existing Boys school The Scheme as approved by Her Maje t.«. ouncil contains indeed provisions unde. "Inch the establishment of a County School for Boys is permitted, but it is a matter for the careful consideration of the County Governing Body, whether in the event of their proceeding to provide a County School for Boys, the establishment of the school should not be preceeded by an amendment of the County Scheme on the ground that certain of the provisions of that scheme are inapplicable in the circumstances which have occurred since the scheme was first drafted (e.g. clause 5 (a), I (1) clause 9*1 and clause 94). I am to enquire for instance whether it is proposed to open a I Boys school, in which the Head Masters' stipend is to be fixed at £200 a year besides capitation payment, whether a tuition fee on a higher scale than that usual in the Denbighshire County Schools is proposed, and whether the intended boys school is to have an D pper and Lower Department. These are all requirements which must be observed by the County Governing Body and School Governors, if the school for boys is to be established forthwith. (4). With regard to the manner in which it is suggested that the necessary funds will be forthcoming for the aquisition of the premises (if approved) and for the provision of the re- quisite school buildings. I am to point out (1) that three full years' accumulations of the annual grant are not at the present date as is assumed in hand and available for meeting the cost of building on Brynhyfryd, and (2) that a serious deduction must be made from the total of £2,550 which the County Governing Body reckon on receiving from this source by reason of the payments for scholarships (15th of the annual 9850 and 940) required by clauses 51, 94 and 98 to be set aside or reserved for future application for that purpose. Further, it is not stated whether any amount has in fact been as yet provided by voluntary subscrip- tions or whether the £ 500 referred to in this connection has been guaranteed. I may remind you that in case the amount provided from this source must be shown to be sufficient to defray such part of the cost of the purchase, and of the erection of buildings as may be attri- butable to the provision of Boarding accommo- dations. In conclusion, I am to say that the Commis- sioners are of opinion that the proposal to es- tablish a County School for boys at Ruthin, requires from various points of view careful and mature consideration. Accordingly before entertaining it further they have instructed an Assistant Commissioner to visit Ruthin in the ensuing month of January and confer with the County Governing Body and the Local Govern- ors on the subject. I am sir, Your obedient Servant, G. HOLFORD. JOHN ROBERTS, Esq., 5 Castle Street, Ruthin. The Chairman said that they were met to discuss with the commissioner the question of the Ruthin County School; and the year, while they had spent in considering the question al. ready was a clear proof that they deemed it to, be a matter of the greatest importance. They had done all they could to secure the co-opera- tion of the governors of the Grammar School, but they had no chance whatever of doing so and the result of the work they did, and for which they had had the approval of the Charity Commissioners, was lost to chem at one stroke when the scheme was before the House of Lords and the present Grammar School was struck out of it. They, in consequence, pro- ceeded to make the necessary preparations for the establishment of an Intermediate Grammar School in the Ruthin district. They had se- cured an excellent site, and an excellent build- ing, and they had done so fat a valuation, which was made by Messrs. Dew, of Bangor, and practically the owner had agresd to take the valuation of the valuers appointed by the Charity Commissioners. The Charity Commis- sioners had approved of the plans, and the only thing wanted now was to get their approval of what had been done so that the local governors could proceed with the work. Mr. J. E. Powell asked the commissioner if it was the intention of the commissioners to consult the Rural District Council upon the matter ? Mr. Bigge said it had not been suggested to him before that day that he should do so but if there was a desire that the district council should be asked to meet him, he would report so to the commissioners. Mr. Henry Williams said he thought it would only be right that that should be done. Mr. Selby-Bigge said his instructions were that he should not hold a formal inquiry, but an inquiry that would take the form of a conferenee with the various bodies interested in the ques- tion. He had no power to commit the commis- sioners to anything, and his sole duty was to report. The main divisions of his inquiry would be first, as to the possibility' of setting up two schools in the district upon the funds at the command of the local governors, and se- condly the desirability of doing so, in view of the fact that there already existed a good boys' school in the district. As to the girls school, he might tell them that-the commissioners were with them, and such objections to the proposals of the local governors had been simply to the proposals from a business point of view, and in accordance with their usual practice. His first question was, was it possible to set up a boys school with the funds at their disposal? The Chairman: We are all of opinion that we can do so. The Commissioner Can you provide the ne- cessary salary for the head master ? Mr Powell said they could. There were other schools in the county with less money at their disposal which did so. The Commissioner said that in those cases there where not competing schools on the other side of the way. The Chairman said that the competing school would not affect them. They would secure scholars although the other school existed. The Commissioner went on to deal with the question of the building grant, andaskedwliether, if the Charity Commissioners allowed the use of the annual grant for maintenance for the first three or four years to be laid out on the building, the local governars could get the re- mainder of the money ? It was explained that the annual grant would have to be taken for four years, and that would only leave about five hundred pounds of a de- ficiency. The first three years were already passed, or nearly so and it would take a good part of the fourth to get the buildings altered and erected so as to allow of the school being commenced. It was also stated that Mr. Henry Tate had offered, upon certain conditions, a donation of flOO to the building fund. Mr. Edward Roberts, the clerk to the local governors, said he had the authority of Mr. Thomas Gee, the chairman's son, the son-in- law of Mr. Tate, to state that the offer would be entertained, if renewed. In view of the present proceedings, he had not yet renewed the offer; but would of course do so, at the pro- per time. The Commissioner said that in view of the fact that the new boys' school would compete with the grammar school they would find some difficulty in getting subscriptions. He ought to have some guarantee that the money to make up the difference would be forthcoming, and that if the school was actuaUy started it would be maintained on the annual grant provided. The Chairman We, Nonconformists; build chapels in the country districts which cost from £ 7C0 to f800 each. When we want the money for some purpose that will be in accord with our aspirations we always get it The defici- ency is only five hundred pounds, and we have a district of 12,000 inhabitants to fall back upon, and there are many Nonconformist chapels in the district. The Commissioner: I do not think that build- ing a school will meet with the same kind of support that you would get for a chapel. The Chairman; It will meet with the great- est sympathy. Mr. Powell: What are the sacrifices that have been made in Wales already 0n this mat- ter? The Commissioner: I have been very much impressed, as far as I have been in Wales, with tie sacrifices that have been made upon the matter of education. I must tell you thst, (hear, hear). Mr. Powell: It must be remembered that Ruthin is the centre point. There are other parishes besides this one. Dr. J. Medwyn Hughes: There are sixteen parishes in addition. Mr. Powell: The opinion of the District Council ought to weigh at least three times as much as that of the Corporation of Ruthin. The Commissioner (to Mr. Henry Williams) I hope you will not consider that any slight has been intended in not consulting the District I Council. 1 will report as to the desirability of I doing SQ. i i Mr. Henry Williams said he thought it would be desirable that the District Council should be consulted but he did not think that any slight had been intended. On the question of the purchase of Brynhyf- ryd, The Commissioner said that the rent that would have been v arged if the place had been rented was dE80 a year, and the valuation was £2,740. From this they had to deduct the value of the land which would not have been included with the part to be rented originally, and when fair value for that was allowed the pur- chase price still came to more than thirty years purchase, and he did not think it worth more than thirty years purchase. [It may be stated here that the property pur- chased is far more than what was intended to be rented. Amongst others, there is a house and garden which rent for £ 12.—ED.] The Warden said that since the Brynhyfryd property was considered by them, two other places had come into the market. The house of Dr. William Jones was on sale, and the death of Mr. R. Alston had caused Plas Newydd to come into the market also. These places ought-, to be considered by them before they absolutely decided. The Chairman said that Brynhyfryd was a far superior place to either. Besides, they had no need now to reopen that question. The Local and the County Governing Body had dealt with it, and they had settled it,; and they were now only awaiting the approval of the Charity Commissioners to complete the purchase and commence the work. After the work they had gone through it was childish to ask them to re- linquish their position. The Warden Why childish, if a better place can be found ? The Chairman There is no better place. The Warden You have not seen Dr. Jones house. The Mayor said they ought first of all to de- cide whether they were going to have the two schools, or only the girls' school. They fhight find property that would be applicable for one school that would not be suitable for the two schools. The Commissioner said he must distinctly state that the Charity Commissioners were not bound to approve of the site selected by the local body, nor was the County Governing Body. The Commissioners reserved their liberty on the matter, although they were quite aware of the inconvenience of disturbing the arrangements which had been made, and that would be taken duly into consideration. Mr. Henry Williams said there was no com- parison between the several localities. The question was asked whether there was land in connection with the two places which had been mentioned. The Warden said there were two acres be longing to Dr. Jones' house. The Chairman said that it seemed quite out of place to raise these objections now. If the commissioners had any objections they ought to have raised them when the negotiations were being carried out. Instead of that,; they ap- proved of what was done, and he f(-ft himself quite unwilling to allow the commissioners- The Commissioner said the position had been entirely altered by the omission of the Gram mar School from the scheme, and the decision of the local body to erect a new boys' school on the other side of the way. He could not discuss his instructions, and his instructions were clearly indicated by the particular points on which he was directed to ask for "informa- tion. On the question of maintenance, for in. stance,that was vitally affected by the fact of the school being in existence already, close at hand. Could they depend upon the fees originally an- ticipated with a rival school over the way ? The Chairman said that the fees would not be affected, and that they still expected to get the full number which they had estimated. They expected that both schools would succeed, with their grant of CS50 a year, notwithstanding the grammar school on the other side of the road. The Commissioner said that the number of pupils anticipated under the old scheme was from 120 to 150 Now he had been told they might expect 50 or 60. Dr. Hughes Now we expect 120. The Commissioner In spite of the Grammar School over the way ? Dr. Hughes Certainly. Mr. Thomas Parry said that the school at Abergele was already too small by half within twelve months f.-om the day on which it was opened. The Commissioner said he was aware of the success of that school. The Warden said that the attempt to estab- lish the two schools was a very inadequate one. They had estimated to the extent of their means and they seemed to have left out the require- ment of a house for the head master. Instead of £ 5,000 they would need £ 10,000 to set up the two schools according to modern require- ments. The Mayor said that the Warden seemed to forget that they had a house already for the head master. The sum named in the estimates was for the school, and it was understood that Brynhyfryd itself would be the residence of the head master. The Commissioner having again expressed a doubt as to the ability of the governors to main- tain a first grade boys' school in the district, Mr. Powell said he thought there would be no difficulty at all. The girls' school was net to be a first grade one. The Mayor said that there was not to be boarding accommodation at the girls' school, but only at the boys' school The Commissioner said that was a new point. It had at first been intended to have boarding accommodation for girls. The Mayor said that was abandoned for the present when it was decided to erect a boys' school. The Commissioner then asked the meeting to point out the advantages which they expected to get out of the new school which they had not already got at the Grammar School; or in other words, were there any complaints against the administration of that school with the noble endowments it had ? The Warden said that if his Nonconformist friends had any complaints to make he should be glad to hear them, and he hoped to answer their objection. That was a challenge. Mr. Powell said there was one very serious objection to leaving the district without a school under the Welsh Act. The scholarships which had to be given in the County Schools, to the extent of one-fifteenth of the annual income, would be out of the question at the existing school. He thought the district, must realize that once for all. If the existing Grammar School were adopted by the district, they would have to forfeit that sum, which would amount to £ 210. He did not think che district did realize that. Mr. Henry Williams said that the question by the commissioner was a very unpleasant one to reply to. The Chairman asked what was the status of the Grammar School. Was it a Church School? The Commissioner said he was not there ex- actly to answer questions, and he did not think he was competent to answer that one without committing the commissioners. He had no power to do that. If he were describing the school to anybody, he would call it a Church School with a Conscience Clause. The Chairman: Was it legally capable of being included under the scheme? The Commissioner: Certainly, or it would not have been included. The Chairman We want a school in Ruthin which will be under the control of persons elected by the locality—a school which would have no denominational character and until we git it we will fight for it (hear, hear). We are not going to submit to be under the control of any body of men i 1 connection with a Church School, particularly in these times, when the Church is drifting as fast as it can iuto Roman Catholicism. The Warden I will call you to order, Mrl Chairman. The Chairman We are a nation of Protes- tants, and thorough Protestants; and we are sorry to see the Church of England is drifting so rapidly to the other side; and this is one reason why we are not willing to give up our claim to a school under the Intermediate Education Act for Ruthin (hear, hear). Mr. Powell said they objected to the proceed-