The Welsh Coast Pioneer and Review for North Cambria

COLWYN BAY SCHOOL CONTROVERSY. DECISIVE VOTE AT PUBLIC MEETING. A SERSE3 OF ENLIGHTENING SPEECHES. FEEBLE OPPOSITION. The protracted controversy with regard to tlio pro]>o.scd conversion of the Colwyn Bay Higher lil-ei solitary or Higher Grade School into a or county school entered uitcii What may probably be regarded as its last stage: 00 far as the Colwyn Bay ratepayers arc oo nee mod on Tuesday evening, when a meeting of rate- payers was convened in tfhe Church Room by Mr David Gamble, chairman of tho Urban Dis- trict Council, iv-,Ch the object of discussing the "whole [KXsition in public in a regular manner. The attendance was not. so large as 0110 might tiavo expcol;od in view of i-ho importance of the subject under consideration, but this was no doubt, due to sortie extent to tho wretched "weai.her, rain falling heavily at the time an- nounced for the opening of the proceedings. Nevertheless what was lacking1 in the numerical strength of the gathering was (substantially made up in the very representative character of the assembly, and stiJl more so perhaps by the very keen and atterjtive maimer in which. the debate v-&s I'stoned to. In tho unavoidable absonce of Mr Dd. Gamble the chair was occupied by the VioeChairman, of tlie Council (Mr T. H. Morgan), who was ac- companied on the platform by t-lio Rev. John Edwards, chainna,n of the Colwyn Bay and A District Education Committee; Rev. Thomas Lloyd, C.C.; Mr David Lewis, C.C.; Mr Ed. Allen. C.C.: Mr George Beva.n, J.P.; fctr Jos. Dickon, J.P.; Mr Robert Thompson, J; I' Mr W. G re en field, Mr T. R. Davics, Mr b'. J. Holmes (Clerk to the Educaton Gommit- tce). a.nd Mr Jos. H. Roberts (Assistant Clerk and Accountant to the- Urban District Council). THE CHAIRMAN'S VIEW. TIp Chairman said he was sure they would agree with him that the object of the meeting dcscr.bed on the notice was a very s'-ockI one. He did not thinli lis would attempt to explain anything in regard to that question of a County ♦school, but would leave that to speakers who "\WW0 more competent than himself to do so. He should like to say that tihat was a mseling or ratepayers, at which only ratepayers were auov.wl to speak, and th,cvy,, ratepayers w'ho In- tended to toko part. WC1'Ø asked to speak onoe oldy. Any questions should be put at the ckx-se of the speeches. Tie thought, it would be as wdI to call upon tihe Rev. John Edwards, who Was chairman of Iho local Education Committee, to cxi la ,n the position in reference to tho Coun- *y School, and after they had boa.nl him he thought tliev would agree with him (the Chair- man) in thinkiji-g that tho question was ono jvhich should rece:ve their Tic-rt.y support. In ■ act, he felt that this question was a weighty One for them to consider. lie could not see any reason whv the ratepayers should have any oueslin their minds as to the advisability of having that. school. Bo far as he could under- stand --and he had listened to both sides and had attended ratepayers' meetings and heard argu- ments for and against—he could not see any ma- firm why t1:o(>m should be any oppo:d:Oo!1 tel tho noh^'i-ic. He would ask Mr Edward* to kindly explain the matter and move a resolution (hear, bear). CHAIRMAN OF THE EDUCATION COMMITTEE. The Rev. John Edwards, who was well cheer- ed on rising, said ho had very miidh pleasure in attending that meeting of rafepayers. They Were not there as politicians, but as citizens. They acknowledged no party on that platform at evening. At the request of 90mo friends, Iw would like to a short account of their Fhcrher Elementary School. I.t. was owned in 1835 as a Higher Grade School. The Higher Grade Schools became extinct in this country as a result of what was known as tho Ccckerton Judgment, which decided that it was illegal to give secondary education out of the elementary education rate. They mot the difficulty to some exter.t by having the school acknowledged as a pupil toaohcrs' centre, n.nd 90 they were still to give secondary education. In tiw. year i 1900 j bov waited as n de.putation upon the Coun- ty Education Committee at Llanrwst pointing out the claims of Oolwyn Ray for a secondary school. That authority listened very carefully to the deputation, and they said, "Wo admire t.;e .work you aro doing; do all you rvossibly can for secondary education at Oolwyn Bay. and we jlI support you." On the strength of t.ha.t enoouraaement, when the opportunity presented itlf. the School Board er-Wed the present li gher Elementary School bunding Tatber than enlarge the elementary school in Conway-road. In the new school they wwvi do ng work of a secondary character and only receiving- clc-mon- tary strants, and tlierofora suffering very much. In 1900, the speaker continued. he waited again as a deputation upon tho County Council, having provded the school, the a.ppara<his, and tho tenoning Hj.iff for providing sc-oo-ndary education, flppeaJmg to tihern to acknowledge our school or take- measures to have it acknowledged as a secondary school. They again said they were. SOrry thy had no funds at. too:r disposal. I should say that, the first Erne thoy tol-1 us that. 4lwh?n the revision of the scheme contea we shaJ! certainly boar CoJwvn Bay in mind." Wo md that promise from tho County Committee, amd rover doubting we went on as well as we Instead of applying for a secondary school of the English tvpe, as the County Ooun- cil dm not think it weJl to 'have an se- condary school in North Wales, where "we are under the Welsh Intermediate Act of 1889, wo waited lint I the time orino for tho revision of the scheme. In the meantime, we asked that the schoo, should be acknowledged as a Higher Elementary School, and this WH8 reply of the Board of Education in April 19015: -"The Board cons dor that the liberal and general edu- cat. on which the authority regard as beuwr re- quired to meet the NEEDS OF OOLWYN BAY could most properly be provided by moans of a secondary school." That means, "If you ask for it we are ready to givo you a secondary echool. Then the letter went on:Tho oodo does not contemplate the giving of such in- struction as being the special function of a Hip"her Elementary School, and tho Board would not be ab.e to recognise permanently as a Higher Elementary School a school of the tvpe which the Authority appear to havo in view. Tlie lioard are, however, prepared to saixrtion provi- sionally for one year from first day of August next the retention of scholars in the above- S ™°°Lfor a f^Hh ,■" Tliat was in lb96. I hen there is fh.s f urther clause in the letter It must be understood that, this sanc- tion :8 only -given provisionally in order to meet the needs of certain scholars, while a more satis- factory solution is being sought for, and that tne question miat be reconsidered at the e,nd of the period named"—viz., 1908. That, was extend- T) ing it for another year. About lst June- a let- ter camo saying that the present arrangement must come to an end, that no child whose a-e •was over 15 at tlie be.gin.ning of the school year ^ould remain at the Higher Elementary School, lliar, meant that over fifty children wou'd be debarred from entering that school: after tho 31st July. Wo felt that was a great hardship to tho parents, and those children who had beeai re- ceiving education at tJlis school, many of them having won scholarships when they entered It -was not reasonable for the to send t'heju away at an ag-e when they luad no chance of entering by scholarships into another school. We appeaiod for anotlier extension for another year. hut. they wrote to say that the first letter be adhered to. That is, if we are going 1.0 rvta.u this school as a Higher Elementary School :t must hI) a Hi^l.cir Elementary School pure .i.nd simple, and thev say distinctly that i<! NOT THE SCHOOL" REQUIRED FOR OOLWYN BAY. That, is a school for an industrial centre, and thev must enter before twelve years of age, and, ■whatever their brains, they must leave at the ago of 15. Now, at a County School, if they have the braims they can enter at ten and re- main until eighteen or nineteen, or until they tfo to college. Wo left everything in the hands Oi tne County Council they knew tho c rcum- 8.AT5ccs better than we d;d and they have taken tr<> matter up. The scheme is now ready, and in it a C-ountv School is given to Coiwyri Bay, it was virtually prom'sefl ton years ago. In th s scheme they sivo us £ 600 towards mai retain- «nsr this County School. That is as far as that poes. Are we here to-night {ling to say, "We d-rtf want your JEMO; we will go on with that school of a lower type than we havo had for last 15 years? No we a« citizens are riot poiris: to say that (applause). Wo have had oou- cation of a secondary ckiracter for 15 years. Gol- Ha^' 'nore than do^iblod itself in the t.me, a.nd we are not g'oinsif to sav that wo are going to accept a school which -is far inferior to what we had fifteen yoars ago (hear, h->.ar) No, ^ve are sromg to ask for this County So! for vxywyn Hay, that, is something to be proud of (hear, hear). Very well, now," you ask, wh-at .about the rat?? Will it incroaae our It ftot& farthing. R^Uher, it will reduce tHe rates bv some bumdmexiU of poutnds in the &!rgregate. "Flow is that,?" you ask. Let me put it as simply as I possibly can. This school, though do:nff work of a sooondwr/ charaoter •'« supported out of the elementary education rate. The cost. of that sohool lazt, year was £10868,. 3d. I am quoting figures from an official document which you c-an examine for yourselves in tiho offioa to-morrow. We save that forthwith for tho rate. After noxt yoar the elementary edu- cation rate will be £1000 less. That is spread over the county, but there is a portion of iti on Gohvyn Bay, and C-olwyn Bay pays one-sixth of the remainder. There is £ 1000 saved. "But you put it on the secondary rate?" you say. We ,P, ,C. ro d L. at pay tlie sworadary rate already. You can charge whatever you require for elementary education, but you oa.n only charge a. twopenny rate for secondary education. That is the maximum, and it is charged already, and we in Colwyn Bay- pay £ 700 of that rate, not a penny of which is spent. with in the district of Oolwyn Bay. I have been reading' to-day a very interesting account of a meeting held in Oolwyn Bay eighteen years ago—November 21st, 1392. I don't know how many of us here now wore present in that splendid meeting. I won't. mention who was in the ohair, as he is not here with us to-night. A resolution similar to the one I am now sub- mitting was moved by t.he late Mr John Roberts, eeoondod an.d supported, and I had the privilege of being one of the supporters. It was I CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY AND WITH ENTHUSIASM. That resolution was at a' meeting of the Rate- payers' Association. I am giving you credit for having stirred ua up eighteen years ago. If you I had stirred up Oolwym Bay twenty yoars ago the County School would have bx-n in Oolwyn Bay. You missed it by a year or so (laughter). In that meeting the ch-airnran -a"Whether we have a County School or not, we will have to pay £ /0 towards it." To-day wo have to pay £ 700 towards it, and mot £ 70. I am 'g'iving you £ 700 towards it, and mot £ 70. I am giving you facrts, and should you deare to contest t.liern I Will prepared to meet you. Out of tho £ 700 wo now pay wo shaH receive £ 603, and flwrq wiJl ba at least £ 400 in grants from the Government. That will bo L!Goi,, brought, into the district, not one penny of which is brought here now. Then wo have £ 1000 for tlie elementary rate. "But," you say, "won't we require anotlier County Yes, but whatever is done, whether you leave that school aa it was, a Higher Elemen- tary School or go in for a County School, we must bu.i.-d a new s-e,noei for Oo.vyn Bay, and that forthwith. We had a let-tor asking* ms to look out for Isrd twelve month** ago. <(ry weJl, if we reject tlie proposal^ of the County Cou,rxil, 'it will mean our rates be increased; to the extent of tho new sohooi. That inoanr, addition to the rates of from £ 0*0o to £703 a yt If we re- faiae this proposal WoO ioje £ 603 and £ 4C0, and wiii have to oc;ntribute out of the rates to 00 to wards thi.3 new school. Aooept this pro- pc £ >al and you will save this money. It is not £ J0u0 once, but jelOM PER ANNUM taat we shaii be saving. I think I litv, touched H10 »?fin points. ri'h.& cjuo.ition for us !o-rig it JiS: yvhat are we going to do? Are wii goiiig absolutely to rehiso this genercuo projxn&aj bJ- causo it was, lout on accouut of the iiioul'crcinoa of oilreiajs twenty yeairs ago, and send our ehi.d- ren ail over the district to be etkiica-ted. or accci,.<t grand proposal for eeoondary ooueaho,1 for LL our ctiiidircji, and at the same iiiine lower (tlie l'at-t\? That is the simple question asked here to-night. Thero is not a itovvn in the whoio of North WaXs half the size of Colwyn Bay—of course, I am bearing in niind lihoilianerehrugog, bui that is jcinod to Wrexh-am—no town half the NiKO or quarter the rateable val'ue that lias not ita secondary school. Why not Oolwyn Bay, it. is oitorad to us (aptnau-e)'/ Look tre Nor!h Walos Ooa^t—iioly.vcd. RLyJ, Abcr- geie, Ldandudno, Beaumaris, Holyhead, Oairnar- yon, PwUhcj, I'ortinadoc, Barmouth, Towyn, and Aboryvstwyth. I)o we consider it i right for ail thoso places to have County Schools, and for Galwyn Bay,which ixvyj orMM-ixth of the rate&to be without a County School ("No") ? Do you qJt ,d,er t.D.u.t riht? I wiil read the rosojutioa i have been a iked to Inove: liiat this meeting of Colwyn Bay rate- convened by the Ohairmaii of the Ur- ban Lliistrict Oouncih heartily approvej of the proposed amendment of the Denbighshire In- tcirmediaiie Suheinc, in which provision is made a County School far Lkuwyn liay, with £ o00 towards it> maintenance, and sitnoorc.iy hopes the scheme will bo oarriod through aa Bpeiodii'y as pessihle." I move tdiis, Mr iidwardi added, for the sake of .the children, for tlie sake of tho ratepayers of the diistribt, and for the sake of the future proa purity of Ooj'wyn Bay, aiitt I to you. my fellow ratej>ayers, to paas i):, unanunouily (hear, hear). THE TWO MAIN POINTS. The Rev. Thomas Lloyd, who is a. memhor of tiie County Education Ocmrnuttee., and of the Coiwyn Bay and Aberg^eie Education Authority, foljowed. Tho speaker, who was cordial'iy ro- coived, said that in eoneidoiingr the advLabUity or other wis o of converting the present Hagtor Eiemer:«t.ary School into a. deooriidary sctiool, there were two questions for tho icoal ratepayejis to keep beforu their minds—one an educational question and the other a financial questaon. Education ally WOlLxt it bo to tne advamtago or disadvantage of Voiwyn Bay ? I1 inanciajy, womkl it raijo or lower tiie rates? The arnswoirs to thoso two quics-. tioru should deckle ,Liicir att Itudc, towards the Koheme. Ta.kmg- first. the edueationaJ aspect— would it be to the adVanta^o of tne rtown edu- cationally to have the aohooit converted? lln- he^atatinigly ho aseerted that iit woukt. We havo in our own midst, proceeded Mr Lloyd, parents who are wei.1 able, and, I believe, quite willing to pay the foes of a secondary school for tiiorr oiiaidrij.i. We have aiiio in our midst many' parents wjio a.ro not able to pay thoso few, And 1 say "withouit fear of reasonable ocintr«idietion that <<<.? proposed schome wiJ. bo to the advantage of both classes, as I hopo to &how to the satisfac- tion of any who ma.y stiii have aome littlct doubt in their niridti (applause). What wiU the pro- posed s.c.11ome f'irat of all. it will give ua a compioto system of education for ou.r ohiidrem. There will be an infant school, an elementary school, a hjghcr standard school, and an intor- riKxilbaOO or sooondary school, in lino with the Wexlsh University. Now, as far as I make out, there are lour or fivo questions asked in connection with this matter. I vrill rfbate fchem and answer them as <"i>o'-ir 1 y as I can [n the few inmutes. I must c-oc-upy of your time: (1) Why not continue the ILtglier Eiea»c.ntary Sahool as in the past? I will givo two reasons. In the first place wo are fudy convinced that a. seoondary echool will be much mora to the advantage of Oolwyn Bay. In tho eeoond •piaoo -the Board of Education in I>ondon ha. abiodutely refused to allow us to continue too Haghe-r Elemsretary School as in the past. In the past wo were al- lowed to keep tilio chi'idron there for a fourth yeair We .oarancit keep them ituw.re in the future for more than threo years. In the past y.ourl.g poo-plo could remain timro till they were 16 yoaas of age; in the future they nau-4 leave elt 15. The seoond qucafcion. OsJced is-What are tho ADTANTAGES OF A SECONDARY SCHOOL over the Higher Elementary School as it would be in tlj(c) fufiure? Tlie lir,it answer to tluat is the number of years tluring which a child can be educated tlJ a ^eoonda-ry school. A child can go to the secondary ecihúool wham he is 10 or 11; 1 he cannot go to the. It. hor liieni-ontary School ti!l he is 12. He van remain in the swondary school till lie is 18 or 19; he cannot remain in the" lTg-her Elementary School aftor ho is 15. Huppc.ae a boy at the Higher Elementary School is preparing for an examination. He is not quite ready for the examination. He wants six months moro preparationi. But if he 18 15 years of age ho must leave tho school, and tho con- sequence may ba disastrous. Suppose a boy of 10 in the elementary school il exoaptionally clever, and he is at that age fit to enter upon seooniiiary oduoatiein. lIe cannot enter the Higher Elementary School till he is 12, and so muet practically waite two years. Then tlie next ftmwcr is that better attention is jgiven to the individual scholar (applause). Tito classes in the intermediate school a.ro much sma.Lkjir tlwin thoso in tho Higher Elementary School, and the tpachor on that aocou-nt can give more attention to oaoh eaho'ar. When the cdaas is large the teacher can do liittle moro than attend to the child-ran collectively. When (the cla« is small ho cuai sbudy truem individually, and that is of imnier.ise advantage (cheers). Then tho third answer is—^specialised oduoaition. Tdia course of study in a secondary school is different in its object from that Lit). tix?PI,igher Eilemcnta.ry Selioal. "The curriculum includes tlie euhjeohs neoes^airy for university soholarsliips and TnatrioiUation as weld as f(.r tihe luaual preliminary examinations for the profession* and oommoraLal pursuits." Then, a.gain, there is a. direot connection betwoan the secondary school awl the Itnivorisity fh<\ax, hoar). It is called an intermediate sahoo!—that is a school between tlie elemenbary school and tho University. There arc scholarships tenable at any university or wuvorsity college providied iby- the County Coriniciil for saliioJars in the I secondary achools, but is no such schoLarghiip from tho hiighra- eeeniiCiiit^i.ry scliootl (hear, hc>ar). I think I have said enough to show that a secondairy school offe re adrautages — great adfvan.tiges — which tlie higher ekimxrutairy does iv»t (applause). A thund question asked is—Tvhy not oomtiiroue to ecird our chuLdren to the Abeirgele ('ouiity School? Because (1) of the expense otf tra- veiling. Some of you wild remomfber that when I asked Mr Wilson Ritirisery, who paid, the railway fares oFf thechiMren who go from' CoLtrjn Bay to the Alxsrgele School, he firstl repjied that the governors di4, bant whom! Aiskied where the govei-nors got the 'tnoaiey firoua be replied "Oat of the rates." Every pc-rmy that goes in railway f«ircs the poor .ratespayer has to find di-rectly or indirectly (hear, hear). (2) Because of the waste of the chijdren's time. An hour and a half or two hours spent every day in going to amd firom eehool is a great waste (a,pplau&e). Many of these are girls. The mothers who have to let apartments or havo aof other children in the family kanow what it is to lose the help which their giris) eould give them before and after school hours, but. the girle have to speaiid the time ion travelling (hear, hear). Worse than that is the ioss to the girls themselves. If they ooiuiLd spend .a'n hour in the .morning aorcl an- other ia the evenimg with the home duties the exp&rienoe they would gain -would be 'in- vaiiniable to them—fax hotter than the house- wifery they can learn at the school, good th-OTHgih that may be (cheers). Thtpm tho third point is THE MORAl. EFFECT UPON THE CHILDREN. The late Mr T. G. Oaborm, when pleading for this scliool six years ago said, "There was a very serious objection to the travelling by train to Abeqgole. As a. sohooamastcir he naturalily watehed the dhildren, and had often cotiood bchavionr that was tnoOt. alto- gether desirable" (hear, hear). A fourth question put is—How will the scheme affect the education of children whose parents can- not afford to pay the fees of tho secondary school? It wiii be in every way to their advantage. There are three olaases. On>0:s that class of parents who only wish for their duild-cm a good edememtary education. This they wiil have, and iai the higher fdandard &eho»l they wild get what wiil be practically as good for their children as, if not ibotter tham, that wihicli wolt,d be provided in the Hivglier E'ementary School with tho ad- va,:itage that they get it free, whilst at %3 rth--y have to pay 1 or &0. The ^ceond-c.lass is oompo.ed c,,( -n., of thosa ,par<mts who wMi to snr.d their cihiiltdren to the secondary schoal. For them, ia tihe children a-re cCovcr, there will he 20 per oent. of .places provided in tlio i&eeoadairy sichool fixe. Onie out of every five roust be •aanutted free .if lie jxisses the scholarship examination. Then there are parents, who though poor woyAd Like their chi'dren to have oa iiaiversity education. the inter- mediate schocL, with its schola.rahip, oipcais the Avay for them. Amy clever boy or i can clinlb the iaddecr, tfrom the lower riiiiig of it to the top, through this system (atppJanso). Is it to say more to prove that the tiocivexaiea oi the present H.j(ghei" i-ilemetnta^ry School into a secondary tidhool wiil 00 eflnea- tionaily to the advantage of Oolwyn 13.v? The second question is a financial eme thia scheme add to the rates? I have the, greatest sympathy with thoso who are cufraid of .imcraasiiag1 the raites. Tihe burden ,1: t, .o heavy for maay to bear (hear, hear). I ir2- that the tuvpreme question ia the ono I have dwelt ujion—tho edueatio.i of th-o <flÚkell (hear, hear). But if the scheme was to add to the burden of our rates I should hesitate to ad-vocafci) it (applause.. But wiil it add to the rates? I believe it wilil cot. On tihe contrary I believe it will do ee.met.hing to relieve the. rates. I think you wi&i agree with me if I can dearly put before you three or four facts. To co.n- riionoo with, whether we .adopt the scheme or aw>t we must build another eieinentary school (hear, hear). The boys' depart,mont at the Con/way-road School is now we must build. We caiiculato that that eohool wiil oost us in laaimtcnanee aad repayment of -building loan .£:U00 a. year. Yvo cairnot avoid that (bear, hear). Then if wo adopt the scheme the present Higher Eiem-eoitary School taken ofi the tlejnentary suhool rate, aaid thus U WE SHALL SAVE £108G. Tliait will be a el .ear saving (cheers). I have just said we shall have to provide £GDO a year for am-oth-er echoal. We tilia.il have to do that in any caso. Then .again, if we adopt the scheme we .shall receive awO from the general tuoid. We shall el so receive about £ 400 in capitation fees, feoth of which sunns come together to XIOOO. That sum will came to our town, and will be of some help (hear, hear). Again, if we adopt theseiheme arad have a secondary school heno that will be an ind/acemient for parents who have chiLdirca to •educate, acid w.ant to live in a ÍiJJJo climata eueih as wo have in Oolwyn Riy, to cginc, hero to residie (oheors). That will help to increase tlie rateable value, and in that way to rc- duoss tihe rates. But sojiio are asking-—"If w-a adopt tlie schorae shall we not have to pro- vide a secondary school haiildirj^ ?" No. vvo fhT-vp tiho echool ^building (eliecrs). It was built for a secondary school. Then ft is .junked "If we have a secondary aohool shall we mot have to eontribnte towards anaintain- inig UP" No; no more than now (hear, hear). We are now contributing from £ 700 to £8()Q a yeao- towards secondary education in the county, not a penny of which comes at pre- sent to Coiwyn Bay ("Shame"). We shall have to continue to contribute that amount, but wo shalil have JHSOO of it returned in a grant from the county t.oNvards,tliQ eceoculairy echoo!, and wo dhall irecoive flboitt £ 400 in addition from the Imperial exchequer ;n capitation fees (hear, hear). It is further .asked—"Can we make a secondary sscSiool pay at Ooilwyn Bay?" I will give two answers to that, either cr which would satisfy me that .we can. (1) Tlie solionije lias been pre- pared by a oorremittee of experts who know Colwyn Bay WetM, iand I believe they were v thoroughly satisfied that a .secondary sahool in CoJwyu Bay would be a success. k. Other places i.n the county with a far smaller popmlajtion and lower rateable value have secondary schools, and are a.ble to make tlwvm pay. LLt ime mention three of four. Den- bigh, with a population of 12,203, is abiLe to eanry on a secondary school for boys omly. Siiraly Colwyn Bay. with a population <xf 15,000, can successfully CaTrya secondary school for boys and girls "(cheers). iLlan- trweit, with a population of 8303, has its eeeondary sclieol. Can we not have a school with nearly twice that population? (hear, hear). If I went into the rateable vaZ-ue of tlwoe Tespective it would only strengthen our case lirnmieniscly (clieers). Finialily, it is asked: "If there should be a deficit on the intermediate school should we aiot be liaftjle to have a rate levied upon vhe town to meet that deficit?" We should ap- point a body of men and women as governors who would see that there would not be a de- ficit. (cheers). LADY EDUCATIONIST'S VIEW. The Chairman said they wore all delighted to stv Miss Hovey, B.A., Principal of Penrhcs Col- Icge, present, and he felt sure they would gladly hear her views on that important, question. Miss Hovey. who was given quite an ovation on ascending the platform,said very much of what she would liavo said had been already referred to by previous speakers, but in any case she would have come to the meeting, though she had known Mr Lloyd would say what she intended to say, because she was there first and foremost, not as a ratepayer, but as an cducatlonisi.-(ap- Pl,itise),kc.c,nly anxious to place before them the case of the children. In the first place they had to acknowledge and appreciate the excellent work done at the Abergele County School (ap- plause). The open scholarship list showed that the teaching at the Abergele School had been excellent, and it proved that excellent work had been done there by the headma-stcr (hear, hear) Her only regret in putting forward the claiin^ of the fcheme was that the Headmaster of the Abergele School would financially suffer in con- sequence of the ch.ingc by not having some of his pupils continuing with him at the Abergele School. However, that she supposed was in- evitable. With reference to the Chairman, she had already had in her mind the word "waste," which was used by Mr Lloyd. There was a ter- rible waste under the existing regime. She did not refer to financial waste, and tha.t was heavy enough, but a waste that was far greater, the physical and moral waste (cheers). Girls had been particularly mentioned, and she wished to emphasise what had been said in that connection. Whtlo the children were so much away from home—they were practically away throe-fourths of the year—they got out of touch with their homes, and as Mr Lloyd said, lost all the spirit of helpfulness that was so desirable in a girl. Then the boys should have reasonable time for games, but that was now spent travelling to and from the schools. The wbrds of tlio late Mr Osborn had been quoted, and they made her feel glad that sh<j had come there that evening as an educationist to uphold the çause. of. the children (hear, hear).. Miss Ilovey commented upon the influence of the train travelling upon the man- ners and morals of the children and remarked that it meant depriving the girls to some extent of their feelings of true modesty and generosity for others. They seemed to think that the whole train belonged to them—(hear, hear, and laugh- tor) they did just as they pleased. If the children were educated at a Colwyn Bay school they would be better in health and manners, and their whole tone would be better (hear, hear). They would be better able to devote their ener- gies to their studies, and consequently the gene- ra-I results would be altogether better. Mias Hovey referred to the figure of 20 per cent,, quoted by Mr Lloyd as being the proportion of scholarships granted Her experience in Eng- land and Wales was tint the number of scholar- ship children had grown to be far more than one-fifth of the children in the school--(hef, hear),—so she felt quite sure they need not fear on that account. With reference to the value of a secondary school to the community she could speak from experience of the number of people who had gone elsewhere to live because there was no such school in Colwyn Bay. She could show letters— numerous applications from people contemplating coming to Colwyn Bay to live, but who on hearing that they had no second- ary school had given up the idea. At one time day pupils were taken at her own school, and without the least effort and no advertising they had 30 scholars, and that notwithstanding the fact that their fees were three times as heavy <1" those at a County School. They had found it de.irable subsequently to do without day pupils altogether, and many, many times sinco then she had felt that Coiwyn Bay was at a very serious disadvantage while it was bereft of a County School (hear, hear). She hoped the scheme would havo the unanimous'support of the meeting (ap- plaus"). Mr David Lew s, C.C., who followed, read out the following clause from the scheme benring upon the Abe g-Te School Headmaster's I position, which had been referred to by Miaa Hovey: "Nothing in this clause shall affect pre- judicially the status- or emoluments of the present, Headmaster of the Abergele County School" (applause). OUDEII OF DEBATE. Mr C. W. A 'amsL-n, chemist, Colwyn Bay, who then proceeded to spook, was asked by the Chair- man whether he intended supporting the motion. Mr A damson replied in the negative. The Chairman I don't want. to interrupt, Lut I think it will be better for those who support to speak first, and these against will have an opportunity a f t c r w a r d =r. A gentleman whoso name did not transpire, rose at the back of the rocm, and said thnt as a stranger the information given by the speakers convinced him of the necessity of a secondary school at Coiwyn Bay (hear, hear). Mr S. Johnson asked whether in fairness it was right to act as the Chairman suggested, seeing that an hour and a quarter bed already past be- fore any of the speakers in opposition had been he-'rd. The Chairman said he had always tried to be fair, and he assured the meeting he would not try to muzzle the discussion (hear, hear). Mr Bernard Lucas: Are ell the gentlemen on the platform going to speak. If so, I will come round in the morning (laughter). The Cheirrrnri: Mr R. Thompson, J.P. Mr Geo. Bevan, J.P., Mr Edward Allton C C:, and Mrs Fitzpatrick also spoke in favour of the motion. THE OPPOSITION. Speakers in oppos'tion to the motion were in- vited to doc-are their views after the following letter was read from the Rev. Thomas Parry, J.P. :—"I>»ar Sir,—I much regret that my in- different state of health just at present makes^it- impossible for mo to attend this evening's meet- ing of ratepayers I nni naturally very greatly interested in the subject which will be under discussion, and I sincerely trust that no action of a hurried nature wiil be taken this evening, for which the retopiyors of Colwyn Bay wiH have cause for future regret (hear, hear). As you probably know. I did everything that was possible some years go to get a County Sahool for Coiwyn Bay. Circumstanccs have, however, considerably changed since then, and I most firmly believe now that a Higher .Elementary School w;ll be cf far greater use to the maojrity of Colwyn Bay parents than would a County School (hear, hear). My advice to the meeting to-night, would be to maintain tho Higher Ele- mentary School at all costs (applause). In this way cnly can we ensure the future of higher education of the children of the working and middle classes in Coiwyn Bay.. As one who did his utmost to got the County School established at Colw vn Bay. I think it would be far more honourable to let the Abergele County School continue to provide t.he advanced secondary edu- cation for the whole district. Ono first claffi school will be a greater credit to all of us than two struggling and insufficient schools, both of them maintained at a high (applause). ANOTHER SCHEME SUGGESTED. Mr J. W. Adamson was the loader of tho opposition, if they may be so described. That he also had supporters was evident from the cheer which welcomed his appearance on the platform. He said he understood they were there to discuss that question, and he did not appear with tho intention of proposing an amend- ment to the motion before the meeting (hear, hear). However, he gladly accepted the sug- gestion of Mr Thomas Parry. After tlie tre- mendous amount of eloquence, wisdom and ability with which that matter had boon discutsed that evening, it would perhaps appear difficult to suggest or put a doubt into their minds with re- gard to the advisability of bringing about t1.1 change suggested, but he thought, it would be only right to delay the matter for a time at least; to dcoido that night would be inadvisable, for though the meeting had been called by the Chair- man of the Urban District Council, he did not think the meeting represented a quar- ter of the population of Coiwyn Bay. Let them take no voto that evening, for as there was no immediate hurry he contended they would be in a beiior position to decide after giving the question more mature considera- tion. What was tho proposed change to cost Colwyn Bay? Surely, it must cost something (hear, hear). They had boen told that night that it would mean a saving to them of at least £ 600 a year. Let them be sure that in so precious a plum there was a slug of some sort (laughter). The pro- posed transfer would imean that the present sdhool, with its splendid equipment would bo handed over for County SdliooJ purpoes so that a large number of the boys arud g:rls who could .attend t up to nearly 16 years of age would be mo longer able to do so, beeairao rney would be unable to pay the larger fees of £ 6 10s per an- num. It also meant that instead of the existing eohool which was meant for the children of working-men, they were to have another school of the same typo as that already existing six miles away for the use of the district (hoar, hear). It would also -.involve a complete change of staff and of students. They were to liav-0 a edhool to wheh anyone could send their children after a oertai-n standard! of qualification after the ago of tca, for a fee of mot less than L6 Tliey had been told that if they accepted the plum thoy would have £ 600 -g'ivcin with it. and £ 400 more in the way of grants. If tho school num- bered 100 scholars it would br ng an income of £ 600, and the Education Authority told them they I could run tho edhool comfortably on that sum. But the staff coat a-bout £ 1109; then there camo rates and taxes, clerical assistance, it was probable there would be something to pay to clear tlie debt on the existing buddings. In add-tien, thero were t"i apparatus, stationery, etc. They would -have loilr bursaries and ft'holan-ihip-s to meet, tlie caretaker, lighting, heating. On TIIE VERY BEST ESTIMATE lie could -Y.Ot ser' how they could run tho school on less than £ 1790 or £ 1800. That money would have to from somewhere, and it would come directly or indirectly from the rate- payer's pocket. Tlioy were told indeed that they were to save £1000 on tho charge in the elementary echool rate, but that stretched over the county, and Oolwyn Bay would, of course, be responsible for a share of it (hear, hear). Then it was .intended to put up a higher stand- ard sdhool to reoe-ive about 100 cihrJdron turned out from the elementary schools and educated there until they were;. 15 years of age. He con- tended that to -rrvet tho demaaids from the Con- way-road. the Old Oolwyn, and other schools iin the district that sdhoal would have to provide for 400 children, and at the scale rate of JE50 per head .it wold oast E12,000 to build su-ch a sahool. In addition to that they wouM have the cost of its upkeep aJid staff to oonsxler. They paid from £ 900 to £1000 already for the running of the existing school with its 1&0 scholars, and if they did; that now what would they have to do for a school aooommodatinig 300 or 400 children (hear, hear). A -higher standard scSicol must cost relatively -much more. Instead of convert- I"k ing the Higher Elementary School into a So- condairy School let it be converted into a 11 igiber Standard Sdhool. They wold thus save an ex- penditure of at least £ 9000. At present their elementary sohoote were understaffed which meant uinfaimesR to the teacher—(hear, hear),— (to tfhe pupil, and the parent (hear, hear). Let tbeÚ school system be of the best (bear, (hear), They had an infants school, and an elementary sdhool, and they Should have a higher standard edhool. JLet those be properly officered and efficiently roam/agod, and tr- Ñ- 4U.L jxteact larger staffs and increased expenditure. But tIlCT-e was a wider question. Why should two second- ary schools be dumped down side by side within six miles of eadh other—entailing the upkeep of two staffs, two buildings and equipment, all merely to gratify the vanity of the .educational party at ÚOIwyn Bay ? (hear, hear). The tre- mendous, reckless, wilful waste on the pa.rt of the County Authority was almost incredible (ehoors). The money instead of going to Ruthin in the form of ooanty rates, should be used to keep down fee twopenny secondary ed-ucs-tion rate to a penny. Specialists in OJ' y department of work meant- higher rates, and educational fiix-eiahstis were much of the same character na other specialiste(laM-ghter, and> hear, hear). It did npt matter where tho money came rom so long as one prov.ded for their particular fad (laughter). Why did C'-olwyn Bay want all thoso choice th~m,gsIt seemed to him that that, eort of thing engendered a selfish spirit (hear, b^ar). Why should thseo two schools be given to 20,000 people, while there was only one isoliool at Wrexham A CORRECTION AND AN APOLOGY. Rev. TJ-IOS Llovd: State the ease correctly, please. There are two schools at Wrexham (loud- clirers, and cries oft "Order"). Try to be fair and not nislead this meeting- (cheers). Tiie re arc about 15,000 people in Wrexham, and Rev. John Edwards: And its rateable value is lower than that, at Celwy.n Bay (applause). He-y. John Edwards: And its rateable valae is lower than that, at Celwy.n Bay (applause). Mr Adamson said he was very sorry. He had triod. to state the oaso fa'rly. I Rev. T. Llovd added teat Mr Adamson had said he and his -Iriesids were taking' that oass up to gratify their vanity. lIe assured them that. he Iliad no. van. y at all about the question (ap- plause). Mr S. Johnson said tho Chai rman had ruled that if anybody wanted to ask a question or make a re-n«ark he could do- so after the e.noeohes hed been delivered. He appealed for similar treatment for Mr Adamson as the previous speakers had experienced (hear, Lear). Rev. Tnos. Lloyd: But if anybody makes a. I deliberate statement hke tihat one about there bei-r^g one sonool at Wrexham when there ana two then it jSOllJy right that someone should oorroct ]b at onots osixxii-ci-li y wIL-cri t is rn.n.d«o. so emphatically at". was the case here (knd cheers). Mr Adamsem said- he was glad to be oorrecte.l. Rev. T. L!.oyd: You should have bsen right in your facts be-fore making such statements emrihatieally. Mr Adamson I am very sorry I nWe a mis- take (.aagnter)—and I gladly accept Air Lloyd's suggest on. I was informed; there, was only one. It JS the fault of rny informant not mine (re- nr-wvd laugihier). Proceeding, the speaker "re- marked that people who came to settle down in Oeiwyn Bay were not. people with families (loud general laughter). What he should v/ias that, too people \];.0 camo there for the most part wera ret.red- .people advanced in years, who had 2-e.:t their farrdi-es in England. The people WAD largely -])ad the rates in Colwyn Bay were widows and spinsters—(laughter),—and he COD- ten-eed It hat there was no need for a county school in the town (aprvlause). A MATTER FOR A REFERENDUM. Air S. Johnston, who was also well rectiwd, sai-u fee wanted the to feel sure that if a county scIkxiI wias to bo provided for them it. would bo for them educationally, but regard should aco bo had for their poekcts. Some of the srxxikers for whom he had every reboot had spokon. about tlie children journey- ing to Abergele, and that their moral tone would bo affected thereby. They had also been told of now the domesto lives of their families were thus affected. Bearing those facts in mind the rnanrgers of the Coiwyn Bav Higher Grade Suhooi should forthwith in deference to the ch Id re n s welfare put a stop to those children traveling to that school daily from Llandudno, OonwaVj, Llari^dumno Junction, and Degamvy (laughter, and hear, hear). Reference had also been mde- to too absonco of day schools at Col- wyn Bay, but th: ro we,re already plenty of SUM rohools :ini the, town for people who could afford to pay the fees (hear, hear). It. had. been said that the Higher Grade School "must go." He fail- ed to understand why it must go. With the exxjept on of the fact that children over 16 and under 12 could not go to the school in future, he failed to see what difference there would be :tl in the sahool when it be.oa.me a higher standard sonool than it it were converted into a county seihool, and so long as they had an excellent county school already at Abergele which would afFopd a.ccommodat.oai for nearly 100 more chil- dren he could see n.o reason why they should get one at Colwyn Bay (hear, hear). Would the change benefit the general body of rate- payers? He contended it would not. He re- cognised that a higher standard sohool was prac- tically bound to come for Oolwyn Bay—(hear, hear),—but. why (Jot make use of the present build Ling for that purpose? Finally, the speaker remarked, "If a county school is goi.i.g to bene- fit Coiwyn Bay by all mea-ns have it—(cheers).— but don't let us rush into a thingl and then call out when we have to pay the piper" (hear, hear). He thought that was a Question lor a general referendum to the ratepayers PUBLIC DEMAND QUESTIONED. Rev. Peter Jones welcomed the. Rey. Thos. Parry's letter, and added that they oouJd give ear to tho advice of one who had been in the education field before ialf-of t.hem were born (bear, her.r). Mr Lloyd's speech had thrown much light upon that, question, but there were otiier points they anast consider, and they should not bo rusSied into a decision (hear, hear). What he felt was that that movement had not arisen from tlie people (hear, hear). lie was certain tihat the Welsh community, could they speak that night, would mot. be in favour of the pro- pased change under the prevailing circumsta-noe». How had the County Council brought forward the sahemo without a representation from Col- wyn Bay ? There must have been gome ropreseiitiitiom from them on the matter, aaid it would be inl..e,r()9t.ng to know whenoa it emanated (hoar, hear), ifc had bex-n sard ttoaA the feej at the Ootmty School would be C6 or £ 6 10B; but they would bo nearer L3. He know quite enough of Coiwyn Bay affairs to be abloe to foresee tiiat. The Abergele School waa their school. To call it tho Abergos^ School was wrong, for it was the Oolwyn Bay dis- trict school—(hear, h,-tr)-and so long as that had been .specially provided for them thcy were honour bound to stick to it (cheers). To sug- gewt that the morals of the Colwyn Bay children were ali'ected by Lho journey to and from tho Abengeie School was an a j to families in Colwyn Bay whoxo children made the journey duiiy (hear, hear). His great objection to that movemevnt was that it ignored the obligations of Oolwyn Bay to a rieighoourin-g community, and they could not gainsay" th.o fact that Oolwyn Oi I'V Bay ism had been prominent at that meeting (hoar, hear). If -that, scheme ivent through it niuji oruah the Abergele School, and that would ba an. injustice (cheers). Mr W. B. Biaokweil, of Hillside, said that as 4,he father of a boy who had journeyed to the Abe^go.'e Sohool from Oolwyn Bay for three years, bo miiit object to what had be on said with +-aftxrcrxo to the influence train travelling was said to have on tlie morals ef the children (hoar, h-oar). lie liad travelled along the Noith Wales t for some years, and -trained to Aber- gele c-vory Wodnoijiay, but he bad ne-yer seen anything irregular or out of .pi-ace in the con- duct of either boys or girls training to the school (hear, hear). NEARLY ALL QUESTIONS ANSWERED. Mr Stanley Wood, M.A., 19<tid he had come to learn something abouit that question that even- In q, and he roaily hardly knew whether 00 was in favour or against tlie scheme (laughter). He had prepared ten cj uet'tacins on a paper and found they hiiiil been nearly all answered, and some of them ajvewercd very well. IIo had heard both sides now, buit ho tor one was not prepared yet to say whether he was in favour or a,{a:16t the scheme. Ho therefore hcijied that tiie matt or would not 00 rushed through. T-nere were "tides in tho affairs" of rates—(ia us liter)—-and he for one hoped they ILid roaciiied the limit, in the high tide of the rates as Goiwja Ray (laughter and hear, hear). A THREE TO ONE MAJORITY. The Rev. John Edwards having replied to the o.ppctvtion speaker}, The Chairman put the motion to die meeting, and declared it carried "bY.1 large majority." There wore erics from Mr Johnson and Mr Adamson for the figures, but though none were givern it was obvious from tlie number of hands shown that the echcmo was approved by at least three to every one pie^ent who disapproved of it. The result was announced midst loud applause.