Wrexham and Denbighshire Advertiser and Cheshire Shropshire and North Wales Register

THE NORTH WALES MINERS PER. I MANENT RELIEF SOCIETY. INITIATORY MEETING AT CHESTER. I On Monday afternoon a meetiil, of colliery proprietors. uLu?-rs. ????-'??? wj lie I at the Queen's Hotel, Chester, with the view of  proposition to commence a 9,)ciety for the whole of the district of North   t? tleof  The North W.le? Ferment Halief S?Ctety." for the purpose of atfnrdil'¡;; suitable relief to widows and children fn ?..<.ff?l accident, ?nJ to members them- selves in cases of disablement, and we understand that if a sufficient number of firms in North Wales join the society, a subsidy of £ <00 appropriated to this district from the Hartley Fund may be obtained as "nucleus for the fund. We believe similar societies are already established in various large mining districts in the kingdom, aId are found to work very satisfactorily. The Society's registered ofRce is at Cerney Cuttat(e, Jl-ass, near Wrexham, and the Society is to be a Friendly Society, founded upon the basis of the Lancashire and Cheshire Society, which has been so successful, and will be composed of ar. unlimited number of ordinary and honorary numbers, above sixteen years ot age, It a- tions being cwnfined to the North Waies Mining We illiy preface our report of the first meeting hy quoting from the rules the object for which the society U established, viz., tne raising of ( fu l ls bv contributions from the ordinary mem- Tiers thereof, and by voluntary subscriptions and donations from honorary members, to provide1 a sum in case of death by accident; and in ease of accident, not fatal, but where the memoer is dis- abled, to make suitable provision for him, as hereinafter provided and in case of tae death of a member by accident to provide for the relief or maintenance of his widow And children or of his fatliev, mother, brother, or sister during dck- ness or other mfivmitv, whether boilily or men-, tal, in old L c (which shall mean any age after | fifty), or in widowhood. With regard to the teric-i of admission of members, the rules < state tha.t all pa-sons shall be eligible for admission as ordinary members who are employed in or about coal or other mines or works in the district; mLl1 on nayment of the entrance fee and contrioutions hereinafter set forth they shall be ordinary members, and entitled to the benefits of the Society. The constitution of the Board of Alau- a<remeiit provides that the affairs of the Society shall be conducted by a Board of Management, to be appointed at each annual general meeting ocr the Hoeietv, and shall consist of eight ordinary members and six honorary members, one half to aretire each year, but to be eligible for re-election. No nerson under 21 vears of age shall be eligible ,1 to serve on the Board. The president anu -treasurer shall be ex-officio members of the Board in addition, and the Board shall meet at least once a quarter. for the purpose of transact- ing the general business of the Society, seven to form a quorum. With regard to the question of expenses, each ordinary member of the iioard shall be paid for loss of time os and his third- class travelling expenses, for each occasion on which he attends a meeting of the board, and takes part in the transaction of business, out no money is ever to be ta.ken from the funds of the y to be spent in entertainment by the Board at any of their meeting. A general meeting of the society, consisting of honorary members and representatives from the various agencies connected with the Society,^s^oall be held annually on the third Monday in -uareh of each year, at such hour as may be fixed, when a statement of the Society's transactions and Po- tion shall be laid before the meeting. The 1 re- sident of the Society sliall, if present, preside at all general meetings. In his absence, a chairman shall be chosen for the occasion by a majority ot those present. In reference to fees and contri- butions, anv person becoming an ordinary mem- ber of this Society (except such as join witmn twelvemonths from the registration of the.-e rules) shall lie charged an entrance fee of Is and on payment thereof, he shall be entitled to a copy of these rules. Each ordinary member .shall pay, or caused to be paid to the secretary of the Local Agency of which he is a member, the sum of 2d weekly, or 4d fortnightly. The bene- fits are as follows ACCIDENTAL nK.rni. Member, leaving no dependent rel:ttives qualified under Rule 3. A; "0 Do. leaving such dependent relatives Funeral allowance Widow, per week. :;stJd Each child under age, per week 2s (id DISABLEMENT. During the whole period lie is unalile to work from the effects of the accident Gs per week. THE MEETING. At Monday's meeting there were present- Messrs Henry Hall, Her Majesty's Inspector of Mines J. L. Hedley, assistant inspector; George Thomson, New British Iron Company W. H. Darby, Brymbo and Broughton Thos. Clayton, Bryninailey George Garside, Plaskynaston W. D. Haswell, Wrexham Colliery X. R. Griffith, Plaspower Colliery Samuel Bates, West Mos- tyn Company. Workmen's representatives :— Brymbo Company, by W. Fisher and William Jones; Coedpoeth Colliery, Thomas Jones Westminster, Isaac Thomas and Evan Tlioints; New British Iron Company, Thomas Hughes, Henry Williams Plaskynaston Colliery, Chas. Roberts, Evan Da vies; Messrs Sparrow and Poole's Colliery, Thomas Jones; Flint Marsh Colliery Company, Peter Hughes; Mr John Harrop, general secretary; Mr Owen Price, Brynmally, Mr Campbell, Wigan, &e. the collieries representing altogether employ about 5,000 workmen. Mr H. Hall was unanimously voted to the chair, and the secretary having read the notice convening the meeting, The Chairman, in opening the proceedings, I said Since there are a good many strangers here present, I think I had better try to explain what we have already done. (Hear, hear.) Some time ago it struck a few people in the district that it would be a good plan to form an associa- tion of the nature of the one we are about to con- sider, which would be a great benefit to the work- men themselves, and more especially to their families. Meetings were accordingly held, and we have since got rules drawn up, and which were submitted to the registrar and passed by him, and we have considered most of the points connected with the Society, and have put into as good a form as possible, which you will be able to glean from the rules in fact, it has been formed principally in accordance with the rules of the Lancashire and Northumberland Societies which have been working for some considerable time, and have been a very great success. So far as funds are concerned, I may state that we have got the lessors of this district to promise r, per cent. on the workmen's contributions and there is another sum belonging to the Hartley Relief Fund—a matter of something like E700. We are in this position if we can get a large number of men in this district to join a society of this kind, that 1:700 might be got to form a nucleus of the Society, which would be a very great help indeed. (Hear, hear.) We had hoped that we should have been able to have fixed the day to-day for commencing the Society, but pre- viously to that we want to get at the feelings of the strangers who are present, and I propose to ask Mr Thomson to! say a few words, and that Mr Campbell, the secretary for the Lancashire Fund, should follow, as he can speak as to the success of that fund and the good work it has accomplished, (Applause.) Mr George Thomson, New British Iron Com- pany I did not expect to be called upon to say anything upon this subject to-day, but as Mr Hall has called upon me, I, with great pletsiire, will give you my mind on the matter. Every person who is connected with collieries I am sure must have felt the difficulty from time to time that has arisen from the result of accidents. Sometimes the head of a family is cut off entirely by an unfortunate accident, and his widow and children are often left, not exactly destitute, butin greattrouble. Oftentimes a man is maimed SO that he cannot continue his labour for years and years, In such a case I think that the Friendly Societies —which are of themselves very excellent things —to which they belong perhaps for six or twelve months help them and the benevolence of their neighbours and those around them also help them for a matter of twelve months or so, and the colliery proprietors likewise help them; but after a time, when the thing goes on, difficulty arises, and the man if he is disabled, has to go and ask for subscriptions to buy him a horse or a cart, or a widow asks for subscriptions to buy them a mangle, and so forth. Now, if it were possible to put the thing upon such a basis as in case of fatal accident the widow and children could claim a certain allowance and be certain that they could receive it, how much better that would be If a man is disabled and cannot earn his living he comes to the Society and demands that which it provides. He does not go about asking people ifor charity but he has a certainty-it is an in- surance to him, and he is enabled to demand that which otherwise he would not obtain and which is very necessary to him. Now, it seems -to me very desirable if in this district we can establish a Society of that kind. We look around and see that in the North of England and in Lancashire similar Societies have been established and have been most successful in their operations And I believe I may appeal to Mr Campbell, the secretary of the Lancashire Society, whether any of the men who are in that Society would like to have that Society fall to the ground ? I take it they would on the contrary like T it to continue. There is another thing. We have, as Mr Hall has well said, a subsidy from the Hartley Fund waiting to be given to the Society of North Wales, when we are in a position to receive it, and it would form a very good founda- tion for this Society. (Hear, hear.) We have also seen several of the lessors in the district, among the principal Sir Watkin Wynn, who attended one of our meetings, and it was at his suggestion that we put down the five per cent. to be ledeu upon the mine owners of the district to the good of this Society. (Hear, hear.) There- fore, if the Society is started and put upon a proper this iJOO from the Hartley Fund and the live per cent. upon all the men pay from the mine proprietors such as Sir Watkin, Mr Fitz.Htl(,rh, and others that can be named—that all comes into the pockets ultimately of the men themselves and I want them to con- sider that. All that we want is to put the So- ciety upon a proper basis, and then we shall re- ceive these benefits. We have carefully gone through all these rules which have been drawn up and sent up to the Registrar—because no Society can be established unless the rules of that Society are submitted to and are approved of by the Registrar—and these rules as they now stand have been approved of, and I believe the colliers in the district have seen the rules, and have had time and opportunity to consider them. We believe, therefore, that upon these rules the Society would work well, and would be of a per- manent character. I may say, shortly, that the allowance; that would be payable would be these :A member who leaves no relatives, who has no widow—who is unmarried, and leaves no widow or children—his representatives would receive £ 20 and the funeral allowance of £ :>; but in the case of widows who are left, there would be an allowance of 5s per week for the widow, and 2s fid for each child until it arrives at the age when, as we say, it would be out of hand. Now, supposing the case of a widow and four children under age, which very often happens, the widow would he therefore in receipt of 15s a week, which would be, I am sure by my experience, an extremely satisfactory arrange- itient for many poor widows and children who are left. (Hear, hear.) Then in the case of disablement, I know many very sad cases of disablement, where the man has been hurt. and where his sick fund gives him an allowance for a certain time, but in the course of a couple of years charity becomes cold-it is very warm at ifr.,t, but it gets cold after a time. Here, however, there would be no coldness, be- cause during the whole period he would be un- able to attend his proper employment he would have his 68 a week. I think it is a most desir- o able thing, and 1 would comment tt to everyone in the district, that we should initiate the I)- cietv, and that everyone of us should do all u7e can to promote it, and to get it started. (Hear, hoar.) The great thing to make a Society of j this kind successful is numbers. If you fail to have them, it will languish and die, but if you have a great number it will be sure to succeed. And here it isn't like as though we !I:lIl nothing to begin with we hare a very satisfactory and again we have the promises of the mine proprietors to help us, and I have no doubt that everyone in the district will jnin us in the movement, and that the mine owners will give their 10 per cent, the same as they do in Lancashire. (Hear, hear.) I hope all here will do their utmost to establish the Society, and use their best endeavours to pro- mote it after it is established. I should like to hear a word from Mr Clayton, who has done a great deal in connection with these matters, and who would be :t tower of strength if he would only put his shoulder to the wheel. (Applause.) Mr George L. Campbell, general secretary of the Lancashire and Cheshire Miners' Permanent Ilelief Society said, as he was to some extent meeting strangers, he might perha.ps in the first place slightly sketch the origin of permanent re- lief funds. The cause of the formation of the first of these permanent funds was to be found in the terrible disaster at the Hartley Collieries, about sixteen years ago. To the circumstances of that catastrophe he need not no.w call atten- tion, but upon that occasion was thrown upon the nation one of the largest detachments of widows and children that had ever been left by a colliery disaster. Then it was that amongst the hard-headed men of the north the idea originated that in order to meet distress on such a scale it was desirable to try and establish a fund on the principle of insurance. The various col- liery clubs bad generally so much upon their hands, and so many calls upon their funds, that they could not possibly undertake the main- tenance of widows and children, and it was very hard indeed to find that when a man lost his life in company with twenty or thirty of his fellow- | workers, his widow and children would be pro- vided for, but that if he lost his life singly his widow and children would have to depend prin- eipally upon charity. The Northern Society was therefore established, but it was found there was a growing disposition to make this fund the means of providing a permanent allowance for a man when unfortunately maimed or disabled in the pit, and a department for this purpose was set aside giving a permanent allowance per week. The Northern Society had been in existence about sixteen years, and although, like in all new projects, opposition was met with, gradually the objections fell to the ground, and now that Society stood, he supposed, the most extraordinary effort in the world probably for provillin for widows and children upon a large scale. This Society had now a membership of 70,000 men, with a reserve fund of £;ïO,OOO, (Hear, hear). The next in order was the Lanca- shire Society, in connection with which it had been his duty to take a prominent part, and the establishment of which had become imperative owing to the continual casualties that were oc- curring. For a period of two years there was hardly a month elapsed without a disaster, more or less terrible in its consequences occurring in Lancashire. Public sympathy was deeply aroused at the first disaster, and the charitable lent a generous and willing hand, but people they found did not so respond to the second and third calamity as they did to the first, and -there was also a great outcry because there was no public sympathy or provision for the poor people, where men were killed singly, as there was in cases were they were perhaps killed by the dozen or the score. (Applause.) | They therefore took the Northumberland and Durham Society for their model and formed the Lancashire Society, which had been in existence for five years, and which now possessed a mem- bership of 25,000 and a reserve fund of R14,000 and he might add, referring to the remark of Mr Thomson, that lie was sure, were there any dis- I position to give up the relief fund, there would certainly be tumult amongst the men. (Hear, hear.) Even the inclination to object to the Society seemed gradually to fade away and now the Society's strongest supporters were some of those who were formerly its most strenuous objectors. Referring to the Pemberton disaster, he might state that they did not in that instance apply to the public for a single penny. The Society took the accident on to their fund in the ordinary way, and there had been no begging or anything of the sort, although the calamity was, of course, a very heavy charge upon their funds. There was also a. Society in Yorkshire, and there was Ci -.L 1 -1 _1- .L another one to be started in ocouian(i wnere tne great Blantyre disaster bad given rise to dis- cussion concerning the establishment of these Societies. In fact he was constantly receiving communications on the subject, and there was a great disposition in all mining districts where there was no relief fund to start these permanent Relief Societies, and many he believed would be convinced of the wisdom of founding such societies beforehand, and not leave it to public or private charity to succour and re- lieve the fatherless and widows. (Hear, hear.) The Society, he might. add, worked as follows. There was a central board of management, and at each colliery was formed a branch having a small committee, president, and secretary. For the working of their ordinary business the best plan was never to interfere with the branches at all— they practically worked as independent clubs-and unless they were doing something that contravened the general law, they were never communicated with, but simply worked as an ordinary works club, sending up their surplus to the central fund. The board of management was open to election, one portion being elected each year, and at the annual meeting if there was anything that the members thought ought to be attended to it could then be readily discussed. As far as machinery went, lie believed the machin- ery of the North Wales Society's rules would work perfectly, and they might consider that their rules embodied all the experience of the Lancashire, Yorkshire, Durham, and other relief funds which they had been enabled to gather together. Then, again, masters and men co-operated, and worked together for mutual benefit. The master learnt that systematic beneficence was better than spasmodic charity, and that setting regularly aside a certain portion of his profits was far better than being suddenly called upon to con- tribute a lump sum on the occurrence of a disaster. By the adaptation of the principle of acciden- tal assurance to the requirements of collieries, men must be satisfied to think that by their pru- dence and forethought, when any sad catastrophe did happen, their widows and children would be provided for. With regard to the relations be- tween masters and men, these Societies promoted the very best of feelings, corners" were being constantly rubbed off that might occasionally jar, and employers and employed learnt that the work they were mutually engaged in was a noble work, and that they could not be united for any better purpose than what the old Book called visiting the fatherless and widows in their affliction (Applause.) Mr T. Clayton, Brynmally, then addressed the meeting, observing that he willingly rose to make a few remarks. With regard to Mr Thom- son's observations, he thought none of them could differ with him in the opinion as to the de- sirability of establishing an institution of the kind they had met together to consider. (Hear, hear.) The matter had bwen put in a very practical way by Mr Thomson, and no doubt they would all fall in with his views the only difficulty which appeared to present itself to him was how the movement, good as it was, was to he carried out ? Now, personally, he saw a very great difficulty in the matter, inasmuch as he looked upon their present meeting as beingnothing like an adequately representative meeting of North Wales. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, he thought there should be a canvassing of the different owners in North Wales, to ascertain how far they would go with the movement, because if they attempted to establish a Society like this in that district- which was a very straggling district, and possessed none of the advantages of the North of England-they would meet with almost insur- mountable difficulties, through men leaving the neighbourhood and going away, perhaps, long distances, and so forth, unless they could get all in the district to join the Society. If a man, for instance, went over say to the Mold district from the Wrexham, the amount of work such changes would entail in keeping the accounts, to prevent mistakes, and to ensure «very man being in bene- fit if anything happened to him—all this con- stituted a great difficulty which they had to realise and to see how it was to be met. If they began, as in Lancashire and in the North of England, voluntarily, and each man could please himse f whether or not he joined the Society, he looked upon that also as a great dimeultv. In the North Wales district he might say that he was the pioneer of these movements be f ore any- J 1 t t 1 h. ne ore :tny- body started anything of the kind, and he had in ..th I al In connection with his ownworks a club which had f .1 I \V IlC 1 3. never failed, since Its establishment, to meet the demands upon it. (Hear, hear.) But with regard to this club, every man by the rules of the works must be a member of it, and therefore he was always in benefit, because the subscription to the funds was always stopped from his wages. But if they had a society- established theoretically over the district, and not more than two or three works here and there were enrolled—perhaps not two-thirds of the whole-that he regarded as a. very great difficulty I iwleed, and he thought the SOcIety would cer- tainly fail in North Wales if it was -commenced with that small proportion of mine owners. Therefore, the very first thing they had to do was to see if the employers ot labor were willing to give 10 per cent., which as they knew, WAS ::lOO ¡ for every £ 1,900 subscribed by the men .If so, then he thought the employer had performed his part of the business very satisfactorily in en- couraging a movement tending to produce such funds as were at the command of the Lancashire Society, in the North ot England and at Durham. (Hear, hear.) If, therefore, they could induce the proprietors in the North Wales district to be of the same mind as others they would be soon in the same position as they were in Lan- cashire but until they could attain something like that position with regard to the owners, he was afraid it would be dangerous to make the attempt to establish the society, because he had known North Wales for a number of years, and lie knew that if they once made an attempt and failed, that failure would be fatal, and they should never be able to start again, lie would urge them, therefore, to start with caution, but to start at once nevertheless, with this good' work, which had for its object the mutual benefit of employers and employed. (Applause.) Mr E. Thomas, representative of the West- minster colliery, said they as colliers could not see their way clear to accept the proposition at the present time. As a class of workmen, they had got their Friendly Societies to which they pai(I sixpence per week besides incidentals then they had the works' club mentioned by Mr Clay- ton for which threepence in the pound was 1 stopped off them, and tor which they received five hillings per week, in c t,e of sickness or accident: and in the case of a fatality there was another contribution from the fund, something to meet the widows claim' in addition to these there was a sick fund established amongst them to prevent troubling the colliery, to which they contributed twopence per week and from which they received four shillings per week in case of sickness. All these matters came very heavily upon them, taking into consideration the depres- sion of trade, he was deputed to say that the majority of the workmen at the Westminster colliery objected to take anything more upon their shoulders than they had at the present time, and that they considered their present plan more beneficial. Mr T. Hughes, New British Iron Company, said a general meeting had been held on the sub- ject, and he as one of the delegates appointed to attend that meeting was instructed to say that the men at these works had a sick and accidental fund of their own management, and that the club had paid for several members who had been disabled more than the laws demanded in ad- dition to making handsome gifts. Mr G. Thomson I think we should be careful not to mix up two things together. As I say, the sick Society is a most useful and desirable institution, but this new fund is something over and above and beyond that. I wa.s going to ask the gentleman who mentioned the sick fund and accident fund at Westminster it he could tell us how long that lasted—that is to say in the case of disablement, how long do you pay so much per week to the disabled person ? Mr E. Thomas I receive 14s per week from two funds for six months, but we get permanent relief from these three societies for life. Another thing we have in view, we find by these rules that there is very little about medical attendance, whereas at the present time we get 5s per week for accidents, and medical attendance for the whole of the family by paying this 3d in the pound. Mr Thomson (to the Secretary) How much do vou receive from the Fatal Accident Fund? Mr Harrop It is £ 10 for the widow. Mr Thomson That's a different thing alto- gether. What I want to arrive at is what the disabled man and the widow and children have to rely upon. As I say, six months and twelve months is all very good, and I have even known charity to keep warm for two years, but what is to be done after that ? That occurs to me. Six or twelve months is all very well, but when there are young children growing up and requiring to be educated, they should have a provision to bring them up to the time when they can, in some sort, take care of themselves. I want to know how far the widows and children are pro- vided for by these funds of yours? Mr E. Thomas Well, sir, generally speaking, a collier's life is not one of the longest at the best, and it is only natural that his widow should get another husband as soon as possible, and the man who marries the widow of course takes children and all with her. (Laughter.) Mr Thomson Well, I think it would be a greater inducement still for a man to marry the widow if the children were in some measure pro- vided for. (Hear, hear.) Mr Campbell said he had taken a careful note of what had been said as to the provisions made by these clubs referred to, but there had not been a single word said with regard to widows and children, and if the colliers of North Wales thought less of their widows and children than they did in Lancashire, he could only say that he was very much astonished, and very much mistaken in his opinion of them. (Hear, hear.) The great object of the Society was to provide for the widows and children and on the latest calculation widowhood lasted 13 years, and in every case of a widow and family being put on the funds the grant to the widow was worth about £ 200. If they put that against what they now received for the widows they would at once see how much better it was than the provision madi at the Westmins- ter Colliery they were thus permanently re- lieved from being dependent upon charity. (Hear, hear.) When a widow got married, she of course lost her 5s a week, but the children's allowance was continued, and, as Mr Thomson said, that would no doubt be an inducement to a man to marry the widow. (Laughter.) Mr Clayton thought a great many widows were induced to marry unwisely because they were not provided for, whereas when they were so provided, they took a longer time to make their selection of a husband, and hesitated in bringing an undesirable person into her house- hold to be a stepfather over her children. (Hear, hear.) Mr Thomson I wish every working man delegate present to understand and realise that we are doing all for their good. We have taken a great deal of trouble in formulating these rules and it is with the desire to prevent misery in special cases of accident. No one who has had to do with a colliery for twenty years but has seen many sad cases where he has wished to afford relief if it were in his power. Now, in case of permanent disablement it is very useful to have these societies which have given £12 or JE20 in such cases, but what is £ 12 or E20, or 1:50, to a man permanently disabled ? If that man who is permanently disabled could feel that he would receive 6s per week as long as he lives, instead of tl5 or C20 as a gift—and that he can demand the other amount as a right and for the length of his life-how much better that would be 1 Now, we are not dealing with those societies or any case where men club together for medical relief without receiving anything > else, but we are supplementing these Societies by a fund established for a cer- tain object, viz., the relief of the widows and children of men who are killed by accident, and for the permanent—mark the word, perma- nent"—relief in the case of a man who is dis- abled. (Hear, hear.) That is what we are try- ing to do. Mind, I am not pressing it at all as a personal matter, but as a matter of large benefit. We all desire to alleviate misery and suffering if we can, and here is the means which we think will relieve a vast amount of suffering and misery, and the men are asked to pay 2d a week—not the price of a pint of beer—and I want the men to think over this and consider it well whether it is not a good thing ? If the Society was started with only the payment of 2d per week, the thing would soon be bankrupt, but here we come with a basis-a nest egg of £700, and 10 per cent. from colliery proprietors, and 5 per cent, from the owners of mines, with donations from the public generally, all of which will go ultimately into the workmen's pocket. (Hear, hear). There are many who would no doubt join and be honorary members of the Society, who are not mine owners, and bear this in mind, if the Society is prosperous and the funds increase, and if at our annual meetings we can talk about our funds in the way of thousands of pounds, then nothing would be easier than to make an addition to the relief for widows and children. (Applause). Mr N. R. Griffith said the representative of the Westminster Colliery stated that the men subscribed 6d to one club, 3d to another, 2d to a third, and so on, and they no doubt imagined that this permanent relief fund would be another 2d per week levied on them, and in the present depressed state of trade even 2d a week was to be considered. (Hear, hear). He thought, however, this permanent club would supersede the work's club, and with regard to the remark that nothing Wai4 said about medical relief, he believed he was right in saying that at the West- minster lid in the pound went to the doctor ? Mr Harrop It is 3d that is stopped out of the wages, 1 of which goes to the doctor Mr Griffith (continuing) said he anticipated that under the proposed arrangement the stoppage for the doctor would be 2d, and the other 2d for the permanent relief. Therefore the work's club would, to a certain extent, be merged into and superseded by the Permanent Fund. (Hear, Mr Thomson thought this point was worthy of especial mention, The sick fund referred to in connection with a colliery at the present time gave an allowance to widows at death, and con- tinued it to disabled members for a certain period, whereas this would not be necessary if a man was in the Permanent Society, and there- fore the payment for the colliery sick fund would be proportionately less in time. Mr E. Thomas Do you mean that the 2d per week at the Westminster would be made away with if we join this Permanent Fund ? Mr N. R. Griffith: I say that it would be done away with gradually, or reduced perhaps to a half- penny per week. Mr E. Thomas Wherever you find a practical collier, that man will take sufficient care of him- self, and it will be a case for exemption where he meets with an injury; and we think it is a greater benefit to have this fund in our office for sickness than simply the Permanent Fund for accidents only, as it is only the careless man as a rule who meets with an accident. Mr Campbell said it was a very hurtful thing for a society of this kind if, at its formation, it did away with any existing benefit. (Hear, hear.) It was not the object of the promoters to do away with any benefits, but to add a per- manent relief fund for the widows and children. He should say, therefore, that a very small pro- portion of the 2(1-say a penny per week— would be sufficient for the sickness; and thus for an additional penny a week a workman would he able to provide for his widow and children and permanent disablement as well as for sickness. Mr Clayton thought matters were getting a little complicated. The remarks of the workmen present were exceedingly practical and to the point. They knew the benefit they received from providing for Medical Societies and medical allowance during sickness, and they must bear in mind that if these benefits were at all superseded they should leave two-thirds of the members and the most improvident of the men totally un- provided for as regarded sickness and medical advice. He thought they should endeavour to bring this matter to a practical issue. Let them consider amongst themselves how far some scheme iniglit he devised for providing for that proportion—the other third who were not pro- vided for by the private ck fund connected with some club in the neighbourhood. Most of the provident portion were provided for perhaps by some paying a. doctor two or three times over- that was really no benefit at all; the doctor for the different clubs might be the same individual man and they were paying him over and over again. They were, in fact, in a better position, in this respect, than the Duke of Westminster— for he knew some men who had no less than four doctors whose advice they could have upon their particular case, whilst he, (the speaker) would have to pay four separate fees for four different consultations. (Laughter.) He would suggest that if some scheme could be devised ;to meet these men who were now receiving 10s a week out of their own club and 5s a week out of the works club—fifteen shillings per week—and who received from their club all the medical advice they required, and would be able to put themselves in the -same position, as far as pay- ments were concerned and could add the ad vantages of this new Society in regard to the disablement allowance and to their widows and families, and also in case of fatal accident. The least unpro- vided for were therefore left without a club at all, and he left it to them to consider how that difficulty could be got over ? The two-thirds of the provident men could get the advantages of their own Society and this permanent relief fund without any extra payment at all. Mr Evan Davies, Plas Kynaston, said they had had a meeting on this subject and various opinions had been expressed. 1 he men had felt sure that the effect of this new fund would be not to interfere with sick Societies now existing. He thought it should be impressed upon these non- providers referred to that they must provide for themselves. (Hear, hear). At his colliery they had also their works club, and he was thankful for Mr N. R. Griffith's remarks that less contri- butions to these clubs would be needed, whilst -the permanent relief Society would take part of the burden away. A committee was appointed at the meeting held at Plas Kynaston and in- vested with full power to join the Permanent Society. (Applause). Mr W. H. Darby said they must remember that every movement of this kind must have a beginning. He was very glitd to see so -large a company present-more than he expected to see. He believed the rules that had been drawn up were so very strongly in favor of the persons who would receive benefit from them that they only required to be considered by the men to meet with a considerable amount of support, and he hoped that now the thing had been commenced meetings would be held, and the men would care- fully consider the whole matter. They would remember at the end of the rules it was stated that any alteration might be made by a majonty of those present at a meeting, to be called for that purpose, so that it was not intended that they should be absolutely unalterable. They had had a great deal of care bestowed upon them, and when they remembered that they had had the experience of the North of England, Lancashire, and places where these societies had succeeded so well, they must have confidence in the beneficial character of the movement. He thought if that meeting- were adjourned and the people had a longer time to consider the matter, the result would be more satisfactory. He believed the more the movement was looked at and con- sidered, the less would the payments appear to be and the more tangible would the benefits appear to those who were invited to join. A point which Mr Thomson had very much en- larged upon was the fact that this was a "per- manent" Society, and he did not think they could have a better opportunity of starting a permanent society than when they had £ 700 to start it with. (Hear, hear.) This was a very large sum, but lie did not want to press the matter upon the men, because the men of North Wales understood their own interests sufficiently well. (Hear, hear.) This was not to be a charitable society. He appealed to the men of North Wales, who were not less worthy than the men of Staffordshire or Lancashire, or anywhere else, and the men of North Wales were quite as self-supporting as in any other district in the country—(hear, hear)— and he believed that when the matter was fairly laid before them they would give the same kind of support as was accorded to similar schemes in other neighbourhoods, as they would see that this was a very beneficial Society for them to join. (Applause). The Chairman said the interest he took in forming these societies was to make them and there families independent in cases of unforeseen accident. They had considered the other work's societies referred to the members of which were, he presumed, generally the best workmen, but there were a certain class which did not join these clubs, and if they could therefore start a universal Society they would be able to get every man to belong to it. (Hear, hear). He was sorry to hear that the Westminster Colliery would not join, because Westminster meant Wrexham as well. Mr E. Thomas explained that the Westminster had nothing whatever to do with the Wrexham Colliery in this matter, adding that the West- minster men were greatly obliged to the Mines Inspectors for the great interest they had taken in their welfare. The Chairman Well, I am very glad of that. I cannot understand why practical men cannot see their own advantage. There are great ad- vantages here such as the other societies estab- lished have never had. The 10 per cent, and 5 per cent., for instance, and the money will be invested very much better than you could invest the small sums you get from your sick societies. Mr Fisher, Brymbo Colliery, said that about half of the colliers there were in favour of the proposed scheme. Many were against it, con- sidering that they had a stumbling-block, in the Accidental Fund established at the works if that could be done away with, he believed all the men would join. Mr T. Hughes, Wynnstay Colliery, said boys and men were against this Permanent Society, on account of the existing Sick and Accidental Fund. The Chairman said he believed with Mr Nathaniel Griffith that all existing benefits would be maintained under the permanent fund. Mr E. Davies subsequently proposed the fol- lowing resolution-" That in the opinion of this meeting it is desirable that a Permanent Relief Society should be formed for North Wales, and that with the view of affording the miners of the district a further opportunity of discussing its basis and especially of making provision for the continuance of sick allowance at the various works in addition to the allowance proposed to be made for widows and children, and for per- manent disablement, under the rules now sub- mitted, that this meeting be adjourned for a month, and that the provisional committee, with the addition of Messrs E. Thomas, E. Davies, and T. Hughes, as representing the men, be requested to report to the next meeting as to offices, officers, and trustees, and to institute and carry out the canvass of the various collieries." Mr T. Hughes seconded the resolution and it was carried unainmously. Mr G. Thomson fully concurred in the terms of the resolution, and in another speech im- pressed upon those present the "permanent" character of the Society sought to be established, which afforded relief, not for six ortwelve months, nor yet for twelve years, but as. long as life lasted. Mr C. Roberts, Plaskynaston, said he had been deputed to ask certain questions, and lie might say that the men at his works were under the impression that this new Society would do away with the North Wales Fatal Accident 1 und ? Mr Thomson replied that this fund referred to was of a very partial character both in its opera- tions and in its power to alleviate distress. There were only seven large firms belonging to it in the district, and he thought the considera- tion of that subject ought not to form an element in the present discussion. Mr Clayton suggested that circulars be sent to the different works in the district to endeavour to ascertain the feelings and opinions of the men, which could be reported to the next meet- ing. (Hear, hear.) Mr C. Roberts: Mr Macdonald's Bill is in Parliament,—I don't know whether it will pass or not—but the men think that this movement will do away with that? It appears amongst workmen that themasters have got this in view to throw expense upon the men instead of the masters. (Laughter.) Mr N. R. Griffith thought the best answer to that was that similar funds had been existing in Northumberland for fifteen years before they ever heard of Mr Macdonald, and in Lancashire also. (Hear, hear). Mr Campbell said in all the meetings, he had ever been at in connection with the formation of similar Societies he had never heard this matter mentioned before. It was the first time he had ever heard the objection hinted at. Mr E. Thomas: Well, we are all under the impression that this relief fund is going to be a great detriment to Mr Macdonald's bill. Mr G. Thomson: I am glad this has been mentioned, because, wherever there is a sore place it ought to be known—you cannot cure a sore unless you see it; but in the first place I think it is bad that the workmen should impute bad motives. (Hear, hear). If the colliery owners had got this thing up simply because of Mr Macdonald's bill, I should consider no epithet which is in the English language too bad to use as against them. For my own part, I should consider myself a great rogue I won't mince the matter to have thought of any such a thing, and I am very sorry that the men should think it You have told me your view now I am telling you mine. The question of Mr Macdon- ald's bill is a very difficult one. It is one that ramifies into a very great many questions, as making one man answerable for another man's deeds is always a difficult question you know, and that has got to be fought out in Parliament. It is a matter we won't discuss here. We send members to Parliament to discuss these matters let them discuss it, and let the right prevail whichever way it is, but don't let us talk about this or that bill in connection with any good thing we have got in hand. If I thought it was the general opinion of the men—but I don't be- lieve it !—I should simply put my hands in my pocket and take no more trouble about the mat- ter. I would simply say, Oh, very well, I have done with it:" (Hear, hear.) Mr C. Roberts said that personally he was very much in favour of this movement, but he had got a great deal to do with the men, and it was very difficult to make them properly understand the matter, find he only desired that they should be enlightened upon it. (Hear, hear.) There- fore, he had asked these questions. The Chairman Weli, will you take our word upon the matter ? I hope that you will always remember that it is as much my duty to look after the interests of the men as of those of the masters. (Hear, hear.) Mr E. Davies then moved the adoption of the resolution as read by the Chairman, which was seconded by Mr Hughes, and carried unani- mously. Votes of thanks to the Chairman and to Mr Campbell for his kindness in coming down to assist in the proceedings, terminated a most suc- in the procee a lng, cessful gathering.