Papurau Newydd Cymru

Chwiliwch 15 miliwn o erthyglau papurau newydd Cymru

Cuddio Rhestr Erthyglau

19 erthygl ar y dudalen hon

-SWANSEA TELEPHONES BATTLE.

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SWANSEA TELEPHONES BATTLE. LARGELY ATTENDED RATE- PAYERS' MEETING. SUBSCRIBERS COME TO COUNCIL'S AID. AND OFFER TO PAY INCREASED RENTAL. TOWN CLERK'S BRUSH WITH MR. BENNETT. A wnll-attended town's meeting held at the Gvildhall on Tuesday evening considered the Corporation proposal to sell their tele- phone system to the National Telephone Company. The Mayor (Mr. David Harris) presided, and there were also present: Miss Dillwyn, Mr. Daniel Jones (chairman of the Telephones Committee), Mr. W. H. Ed- wards, Councillors H. G. Solomon and C. T. Ruthen, and the Town Clerk and the Deputy Town Clerk (all of whom occupied seats on the bench of the Crown Court where the meeting took place), Aid. Roger Thomas, Councillors Jas. Livingston, Geo. Hemmings, Morgan Hopkin, Dd. Griffiths, Morgan Tutton, Alex. Sinclair, Geo. Col- will, T. T. Corker (vice-chairman of com- mittee), Moy Evans, A. Lovell, Thos. Mer- rells, and Philip Davies, Aid. R. Martin, Aid. E. G. Protheroe, Messrs. R. L. 'Sails, A. R. Way, Matt. Jones, Col. LI. Morgan, David Davies (editor, "Daily Post"), A. R. Bennett (consulting engineer in the matter to the Corporation), Grey Walters, Leon- ard (who had been the prime mover in con- vening the meeting), F. Parker, David James, J. E. Rowlands, H. A. Chapman, S. Fish, Herbert Monger, Chas. Maggs, A. R. Way, W. Thomas, E. Jenkins (ironmonger), J. Williams, Geo. Roberts (chairman of the Chamber of Trade), W. E. Gauntlett (district manager, National Company), E. L. Be- henna, T. Griffiths, W. Thomas (Gloucester- buildmgs), Donald Burnie, Viner Leeder, W. Lean, W. H. Brown, Sidney Palmer, A. G. Mackie (manager Corporation tele- phones), and others. There were, about 300 ratepayers present. Mayor said when more than fifty rate- payer asked him to call a public meeting he thought it his duty to do so. In the pre- sent case he was asked by 52, and the at- tendance that evening showed keen appreci- ation of matters connected with the town. He only wished the same intelligent inter- est was taken in every other question. (Hear, bear.) TELEPHONE COMMITTEE'S CASE FOR A SALE. Mr. Daniel Jones (chairman of the Tele- phones Committee) explained in detail the reasons why the Corporation recommended tbe sale. At the outset he wanted to dis- abuss their minds of any notion such as appeared in the press that the Telephone Committee were in a terrible blue funk. Such was not the case. So far as Swansea was concerned they would not have gone in for any expenditure if they had any notion that the licenser was going to be restricted. He dwelt upon the attitude of the Post Office who had decided not .to grant more licenses to Corporations nor to extend pre- sent licenses. Deputations from Glasgow and other towns (Swansea included) waited upon the Postmaster, but they got little comfort from the then Government and the offers made to take over the concerns were so inadequate that do ^lf-xespectmg com- mittee could ask a Gn,Vnation to accept the same. When the p^eaent Government came in hopes were held out of the possi- bility of the Department being more sym- pathetic. But the policy was the same. The last offer Swansea bad from the Post Office would ha.ve meant a loss of £1,500. A great deal had been made and said with regard to the last inquiry for a loan, and the committee had been held that a great bungle was made. So far as the beads were concerned, as chairman of the committee that was absolutely wrong. The Government Board knew Swansea had been spending money unauthorised and Swansea was allowed to go on because negotiations were proceeding with the Post Office, and there was hope the same would come to a successful issue. In the meantime they had a number of people asking for telephones but the committee had no money, and the little that had been allocated for an under- ground cable had been spread over wires to take in subscribers. The Inspector was satis- fied the money had been spent, and that they were doing their best to get a good return. The Council then decided to ap- proach the Post Office again, and Mr. Jones proceeded to read an extract from a letter from the consulting engineer, dated July which stated "There is an element of un: certainty about the matter," and then al- luded to the experience at Portsmouth and Brighton (in the case of the former the Local Government Board disallowed all the expenditure on the new junction lines, or increasing the number of subscribers by branch exchanges, and in the case of the latter the Local Government Board dis- allowed all their extension, so that Brighton were not able to join up any new subscribers and their undertaking had been brought practically to a standstill.) Having that in- il'T th+e <*>n^ting engineer, he thought it was time to look round. Mr Jones deaat with the National Telephones' the "repayment of the whole of the capital law costs in connection witn mter-communicatioQ ( £ 1,709), and allowing the Corporation to retain 'profits made up to Mai-ch 31st next, which date was suggested that the system might be taken over. Mr. Jones did not think senti- ment should stand in the way and over-ride a business matter such as this. It had been said that Corporation subscribers were likely to suffer at the hands of the National. (Ap- plause). So far as the Corporation were concerned with that matter the present rates would remain as they were for two vears. A Voice: Two years Proceeding, Mr. Jones said he failed to see that the Corporation were not safe- guarded. The Corporation would like to keep on with the concern, and many might well say "Why not go on; you are makin* £1,000 a year practically out of the con- cern." But they had to look facts in the face. They had 14 years to go before the expiration of the license, but to go on they must go in for a loan to develope the sys- tem to the tune of £10,000. Within 14 years the capital cost would go up to £50.000 or JB60,000, and at the end of that time the Corporation had no guarantee that the Government would take a pennyworth of municipal plant. What were they goinc to do with the plant then? Scrap it! If the ratepayers were prepared to accept that responsibility he felt sure the members of the Corporation and Committee would not say nay. Mr. Jones then moved "That this meeting of ratepayers was in favour of the sale of the municipal telephone system." WHAT THE CORPORATION HAS CONTENDED WITH. Mr. T. T. Corker (vice-chairman of the Telephones Committee) seconded, and said he was not in favour of the scheme, but as the step had been taken when he got into the Council, he was determined to assist the then vice-chairman. He had not been in the Council long before he found that the Corporation was not the kind of syndi- cate to run a telephone. He spoke of the then opposition even from subscribers, who were never satisfied, and did what they did not dare to do with the National Company —refuse to pay what they had ao-need to When they obtained the license for mfcer" communication, what was the value of it Nothing! The National Co. said "We will fight you before you get it." Mr. Corker spoke of the Company being left with a toy scheme on their hands, and in 1911 being in opposition to the Post Office. Should they keep on a secondhand business while they were being offered a price? He thought they would be very foolish indeed. He would wash hislands clean of the matter un- less they were allowed to sell. (Hear, bear.) CONSULTING ENGINEERS ARC C. MENTS AGAINST SALE. Mr. A. R. Bennett (the former nnsuit-j ing engineer) said as regards Portsmouth the position was afterwards reversed, and ] the Local Government Board allowed the expenditure for the junction lines. That ought to have been an example for Swansea. Swansea, ought to have persisted with grea- ter strenuousness than it did. (Apj'ise.) If j it had laid siege to the Local Government Board the present position would never have arisen. With regard to Brighton, 't was true the Government Board refused fur- ther loans, but the circumstances were dis- similar to those at Swansea. Brighton had a borough in the immediate neighbourhood really forming a portion if the same town —Howe. At the last inquiry strong opposi- tion was offered—stronger than Swansea-- j MR. A. R. BENNETT, Westminster. I-- and the result was the Board declined to allow Brighton to expend ratepayers money out of Brighton. He did not agree with Mr. Jones as to what would happen in 1911. In several places, as in London, ',he Post Office had come into competition with the National Co., but they did not try to cut each other's throats by under-quoting. They arranged a common tariff. In 1911 the Post Office would not under-cut Swansea Corporation. They would say, "Let us ar- range bases of tariff and conditions. We shall be able to make them one whole, and we shall be able to take your system over as part and parcel of our own." He was sure that Swansea would, at the end, get practically full value for the system back again from the Post Office. (Applause.) The "National" had made two efforts to buy the Hull telephones, but on each oc- casion the Corporation threw out the pro- posal by a large majority, although the terms offered were very favourable. Hull license expired in 1911, but Swansea's went on to 1920. Hull thought the people would not allow a public department to confis- cate the property of a Corporation or indi- vidual. (Applause.) He was sure there was not the slightest tear cf Swansea's money being confiscated in 1920. The Post Office might say in 1911, "It is inconvenient to have two systems, we would rather take the whole thing in our hands now and we will take your system over and cancel vour license." That would be a fair arrange- ment. They would not say, "We don't want your system, that pole or that instru- ment." According to the present offer the Post Office left the Corporation with the Exchange building. Some of the Corpora- tion departments were badly provided for now in the wav of accommodation. THE MAYOR INTERVENES. Mayor called upon the speaker to con- fine himself to the question. Mr. Bennett said he wished to draw atten- tion to the matter. (Cries of "Go on.") Mayor said he would rule the meeting, and that outside matter had nothing to do with the question. (Applause.) Mr. Bennett was sorry the Mayor had intervened, but he brought it up with the best intention. ("Quite right.") The diffi- culty apprehended in 1911 was greatly ex- agerated, and based upon insufficient know- ledge of what was happening in similar eir- cumstances. One of the terms at Hull was that the existing rates would be granted for j three years; Swansea was only obtaining two. The police in Swansea were badly served for telephones until the Corporation stepped in and he thought the question should be put, "Have any terms been made with the company in the event of purchase to give the Corporation use of its own lines at their present rates?" (Applause.) Then 1 on there was the question of the Corporation employes, who had served them faithfully, and stringent conditions ought to be made in their interests, so that they would not! suffeT in any transfer. Mr. C. Maggs asked how, in the face of the Local Government Board giving tile Corporation the money, it was proposed the town should undertake the extensÍom. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Bennett did not take it that the Local Government Board had refused any loan. They had said thev had insufficient data to consider the application, and they asked for further information. TOWN CLERK'S BRUSH WITH MR. BENNETT. Town Clerk said the Local Government Board had not up to now refused any loan. (Applause.) But they must not suppose the possibilities were not great. Indirectly, Mr. Bennett had suggested that, notwithstanding the inquiry, Swansea should go to its mem" bers of Parliament and say to the Govern- ment Board, "We have^ an unanswerable case and then John Burns would accede immediately to the request. (A voice: "He did not tay that.") Well, words to that effect. ("No.' ) Mr. Bennett said in his opinion, if in- fluence were brought to bear upon the Local Government Board they would grant suffi- cient money to go on with pending an in- quiry as to how the previous money had been spent. Town CleTk characterised Mr. Bennett as UTTERLY AND ERRONEOUSLY WRONG. It was simply puerile to suppose such a thing. The Local Government Board sent ¡ down their inspector to Swansea, and Mr Bennett brushed that gentleman aside* as some man not worth talking about. voice, "He doesn't," and cries of "No.") Mayor asked that the Town Clerk should continue to make his statement. The Town Clerk said until a full inquiry had been made into all the facts of the case to go to the President of the Local Gov- ernment Board with such a suggestion was simply puerile and absurd Take it from me, things are not done at Westminster in that way." (Laughter.) Mr. Wm. Thomas (Glo'ster Buildings) said the municipal system was a valuable asset, and they could not put down in figures the loss and the annoyances to which they wera put who used the National system. A large number of Corporation subscribers would be prepared to pay increased rental, rather than revert to the old position. If they could not g(* the Government to sanction extensions, why not give the subscribers an opportunity of forming a company, as he believed it could be made to pay? Coun. Merrells said he had made a sug- gestion that the subscribers might be asked if they would be prepared to pay an extra £1 per annum, so that the system might be retained. If that were done the annual pro- fit on the basis of the JS916 nett profit actu- ally made would be brought up to about £2,000 per annum, for the unexpired term of the license. The THE COROPRATION HAD GOT INTO A STATE OF FRIGHT because it was said that unless they sold they would have so much "scrap," but the cables and wires, etc., would still in 1920 be a valuable asset. Mr. Merrells said that money was sanctioned for a loan, the nature of which was afterwards changed. Mayor: It was not the Local Government Board, but an Act of Parliament. Mr. Merrels Then it is worse because you broke faith with Parliament itself, and not a department. Mr. Leonard moved a "protest in tbe strongest possible manner" against the pro- strongest, possible manner" against the pro- Mayor ruled the resolution to be a direct negative.. 1 )k. Leotnardy If that is your ruling, 1 must abide by it. He (Mr. Leonard) said the National Telephone Co. had said over and over aga.in that the Corporation tele- phones was an antiquated system. If that were so, what must their system be? Coun. Hopkin: Neolithic. (Laughter). Mr. Leonard claimed that the Corpora- M. tion was an infinitely better system, and asked what was the difference in round figures between the Post Office offer and the National terms. Coun. D. Jones £3,500. Mr. Leonard And we have the building in Pier-street? ("No.") Mayor explained that the Post Office on gmahly offered £ 17,000 for what had cost the Corporation £ 24,000. Subsequently the offer was increased to £ 22,500, which was their last word. The Corporation felt they were not justified in asking the ratepayers to make up that deficit, and the committee approached the National Company, who im- proved upon that offer by £ 3,500. The Cor- poration had spent £ 2.700 upon the station, but the Post Office were only prepared to take it upon a lease for five years, whereas the National Company were prepared to re- imburse the whole of the outlay and pay for 75 years JB56 a year ground rent f-T the station. So that their offer was £ 3,500 bet- ter. and the question of property in addition. Mr. Leonard said tmat if the Government Board had granted the last application "on your own statements, you would have la.nded the town in a loss." He went on to show how in Tunbridge Wells the National had increased the rates, and argued that as 53 out of 54 subscribers called upon in Swan- sea had signed the memorial for that meet- ing, the general feeling was in favour of th.3 retention of the system. Coun. Solomon felt proud that he had taken a part in the creation of the system which the subscribers wanted to preserve. Coun. Hopkin: And you to strangle. (Laughter). Mr. Solomon asked ii iliey were justified in retaining the system, under the altered circumstances of telephones in the country, when it could be sold without any risk of a loss to the ratepayers? (A Voice: "Yes.") By 1920 the Corporation, if the system were kept. would have spent another £28,000, bringing the capital outlay that would have to be met by a sinking fund up to £ 60,000. He very much doubted if the subscribers would agree to pay an increased rental, but at present there were only 1,212 as against 2,400 subscribers on the National. Mr. Sails: How many bogus? Mr. Solomon said the fact. remained that there were only about 1,200 ratepayers in Swansea, willing to join in opposition to the National. The National Company were los- ing money in Swansea they did not hesi- tate to tell their position to the assessing authorities. Mayor thought Mr. Solomon had better confin-e himself to the question. Mr. I I-),rgan Hopkin: Go on; you are with us, Solomon. (Laughter.) Mr. Solomon said by the arrangement the subscribers would get free and unrestricted inter-communication with outlying districts, which they had not at present. There was also the doubt if a sale was not made, of the Government, at the end of the license, taking over the plant, as the Post Office Engineer had already said that in four years they would scrap their switchboard, which oost nearly £ 2,000. It should further be remembered that the committee had spent £8.000 without Government sanction, but that difficulty was solved if a sale t i-ok place to the N a- tional, as they were willing to pay for lock, stock and barrel; and so the Cor- poration would get the benefit of that. It behoved them to be careful to take no risks with the telephones (Hear, hear.) Replying to Mr. Behenna, Mr. Solomon said it was on the advice of their consulting engineer that a longer license was not ap- plied for originally. Answering Mr. Leeder, the Mayor said that the safeguard against an increase in the present rates was that the National Company would agree not to disturb the present rates for two years, and after that date the terms would be those agreed upon between the Post Office as existing in other towns. Coun. Morgan Hopkin declared that there was no resolution of the Council authorising a sale. The Mayor said that was a misleading statement. Mr. Hopkin said the deputation was only to go to the Postmaster-General. Mayor: And failing satisfactory terms to approach the National. Mr. Hopkin said if there was any doubt he would ask for the minute book. v Mayor: There are many things of which there are no minutes appearing. ("Oh.") In fact, Mr. Hopkin himself attended as a member of the executive of some foreign animal society a meeting in London with- out a minute of the Corporation. (Laughter and "Oh.") Mr. Hopkin emphatically contradicted it, and condemned those who wanted to for- sake the telephone ship like certain animals. Mr. W. H. Brown moved an amendment that before a sale be made an opportunity be given to ascertain the willingness of the subscribers to increase their annual sub- scription. Mr. W. A. Ford seconded, and said the Corporation had got hold of something which PUZZLED THEM BECAUSE IT ACTU- ALLY MADE A PROFIT. (Laughter.) The Corporation service was far superior, and his head office in London were willing to pay the 4d. terminal charges in London every day to be put through on the Corporation instead of the National, (Hear, hear.) Mr. Donald Burnie suggested the meeting be adjourned to enable a. plebeiscite of the subscribers to be taken as. to an extra £1 per annum. Mayor said. there could be no adjourn- ment, but any suggestion of the meeting would be carefully considered. Mr. Sidney Palmer said the Corporation service was 100 per cent, better than the National and he would be willing to pay more for it. Mr. R. L. Sails said the manner in which the National Company had treated the Cor- poration over the inter-communication ques- tion justified them in saying they bad ab- solutely no confidence in the National Com- l pany. He ridiculed the idea that the plant at the end of the license would be valueless or that the Post Office would decline to treat the -whole matter on a business foot- ing, but admitted that the question was surrounded with some difficulties. He ap- pealed to the Corporation, however, to mak another effort to keep such a useful service6 I Aid. Martin supported the amendment although he had been m favour of a sal because of the unbusinesslike treatment thl Corporation had got from the Post Office which he was afraid might still prevail if they kept the telephones till 1920. Pro- ceeding, Mr. Martin said they must not ex- pect the ratepayers who were not sub- scribers to bear loss on the users' behalf. The Corporation could not get satisfaction from the Post Office, though they were pre- pared to hand the 'phones over to them without loss or profit, but the Post Offioe had the hardihood to 6ay the Corporation must lose JB1,500 by the transaction. He could not be a party to that. He was pre- pared to hand over to the National for the three years, and they had the assurance that the rate for two years would be the rate applied to the district by the Post

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