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il -== ) 1 f- ^CARNARVONSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL. I SMALL HOLDINGS ACT IN I | OPERATION. ADVANCED TO SOUTH t. CARNARVONSHIRE FARMERS. t ———— A special meeting of the Carnarvonshire Corniy Council was held at Carnarvon 011 Satur- day, when the AUotnions Committee k relented ils lust report. The Chairm.vi (Mr Maurice Jones) presided, atd t.i.e¡" .\vei-e also preent: — Mr R. O. Joi^ is (vico-c'iuirniun), Colonel Lloyd Evans, Colonel tiie 1 lien. J J. Lloyd Mostyn, Judge Brj'11 Rooeris, Mr ;| Ellis W. Davies, M.P., Dr. R. Arthur PricharJ, j Jiev. W. Morgan (St. Ann's), Rev. Ceidiogr Ro- berts, Messrs Jssard JDavies, J. Jones Morns, D. X'. Wi'liams, J. Evn Roberts, Richard J'hoiiui3, J T. Jones, J. R. Prnciiard, iiarry Parry, J. 1 i R. Hughes, T. C. Lewis, K. O. Jones, C. A. I Jonoci, Kohert T-nomas, George, H. H. EllIs, T. Roberts, R. Jones Kobcrts, A. G. Rogers (1J- gaiiwv), Richard Conway, C. Pozzi, J. JOil-OO, H. iJoyd Carter, Ralph Eisner, '1'. \v. Griiiitn, ltd. 1 Lavlcs, and. G. iiughes Roberts; witn the Cierk |M: J. T. H.obt.rts). j Tho Chairman, beiore commencing the^TOi-iriftss of.the meeting, wis'hed the members ot the Coun- cil a "Happy New Year." Mr Issard Davies: Tne same to you. The Chairman said that since tmey last met a Very sad bereavement had befallen their colleague, the Right lion D. Lloyd George, tnrougn tiie loss of his daughter. He thougnt it was their duty to pass a vote of condolence a.nd sympatiiy with him. The vote was passed in silence. ALLOTMENTS COMMITi'LE'S REPORT. Tha Chairman (Mr Robert Thomas) submitted f-bc* minutes of the Allotments Committee, who ^ported that a letter was from Mr Rd- r Jones, Cajeau Gwynion. Llaniestyn, and it was re commended that the clerk be instructed to write to the agent of the Madryn Estate, conveying to A 1.11n the purport of the letter. I Applications had boon reoeived by the Clerk I for speakers to attend meetings to explain the I provisions of the Small Holdings Act, 1907, and 0 tho following fixtures were arranged:—BoUwn- f and Aberdaron, Mes-rs R. Tnomas and J. J "Ones Morris Nevin, Messrs J. Jones Morris and C. Hughe« Roberts; Llanwnda, Messrs E. W. j Haviee, M.P., and the Clerk; Llanystumdwy, Mr J *V■ George.; Dolwyddelen, Mr R. O. Davies ;Bedd- C<ilei-t, Mr J. Jones Morris; and Edeyrn, Messrs J. Jones Morris and G. Hughes Roberts. The Clerk was instructed to prepare the draft of a mortgage to be used in cases where the Council lend money under the provisions of the Small Holdings Act. Mr Robert Thomas further reported, that a Meeting of tho committee had been held that | *;jOrni,ng, when ten applications were reoeived for t euins amounting in the aggregate to J64436 un- f der the Small Holdings Act (1892) to enable the Applicants to purchase their farms, situate in SQuth Carnarvonshire. The committee were satisfied that the prices proposed to be given for land were reasonable, and they recommended that, an application be made to the Local Gov- orum&nt Board for a loan, repayable in eighty years, the money to be advanced to the appli- çanl, upon the security of their holdings. The I rate of interest would be the same as was charged í the oounty, with the addition of 5s per cent. to j cover a proportion of the cost of the securities 1 and establishment charges. ;< Answering a councillor, Mr Robert Thomas i nc.id tha.t the area of the farms in respect of j applications had been received, varied from I 7 acres to 39 acres. The Ohairma.n explained that money would bo ftpplied for as tho applications were received. J Mr .John Jones. Dinarth Hall. stated that he 'I supported the movement generally, but not en- tirely. First of all a proper scheme should be prepared. It seemed to him that the Council ^tended advancing money to any applicant with- out raking the necessary precautions, a.nd if he understood the Act aright they were laying tih-emselva* open to penalties. The Clerk: This is the 1892 Act, not tho one P&swd last year. Mr J. Jones: I think we must lav some scheme before the Commissioners appointed by the Board of. Agriculture. Tho Chairman You are wrong. Mr J. Jonas: Farmers rosiding in other por- jJons of the •ou.nty than Lleyn might want to buy their farms, you know, and we cannot go J\ond a Id in the The. Chairman: You are wrong again. J Mr Issard Davies remarlwd, tihat the Council were embarking upon one of the most moment- t ouv Undertakings it. had entered upon since the t inception of the County Council. He was as 1 "Mich in sympathy with the movement as any "Tettibe'r of the Council, but .theji must not mate nny move unless they were able to justify it. A PERTINENT QUESTION. For instance, had the land been valued, so j that the Council could be satisfied whether it was worth the money proposed to be advanced? f (bear, hear). He understood that a friondly | Neighbour had been valuing the property. He I had no desire to question that valuation, but supposing at some future time tho land was the f subject of litigation in a court of law, and it was asked why tho Council advanced money on i. land which had not been officially valued? Their w o,nly reply' could be that friendly neighbours 1 had given a valuation, and that they were also told that good fellnws occupied the farms. Ho f'elt sure the Council would agree with him that they would be in a safer position if they were able to say that a competent valuer had valued j'he land before any money was advanced (hear, ,4' hear). In their own private capacity, he was r sure that no member of tihe Council advanced money an mortgage unless the p.mp-erty was pro- I.. perly valued. He would like to know how b much rent these tenants paid under the new ar- tangement and under their old landlords; and how much the- Council were supposed to pay for the land. He noticed that. the Irish tenant i a of 10s. whilst ] We;lsh tenants were a,sked to pay 32, and with, rf it v.as for 50 years, a sinking fund of 15s 3d- W>hy that anomaly? He certainJy thought they should obtam the money cheaper than that. At fi Present money was dear, but it was only tempor- ( i ary, and ho wanted to know whether in the ( Ovent. of money becoming cheaper better terms I) could be secured. The tenants, he believed, 1 could make a better bargain by borrowing money | outside tho Council, especially when money could be secured; at 2% i^er cent. > Mr Jones Morris: Where? Mr Issard Davies: Oh, you lawyers can find it I (laughter). Mr Robert Thomas stated that whore the rent t had been £ 19, it would, under the new arrange- | »ti'e.nt, be £ 21, but the farmer would be, gradu- I ally buying his property. No doubt if the farmers could got money at lg per cent. they 1 would not trouble the Council, but the Council could not advance money at a loss. Here they bad a farm of 18 acres, with a rent 0££17, in- cluding the tithe. It was purchased for £550, Y and the tenants asked the Council for £440. Mr J. Jones: Is the money jiaid, with the prices given at the sales as the basis of valuai- tio.ii? Mr Robert Thomas: No. The Small Holdings Cbriimittee, prooeeded Mr Thomas, had carefully fcxamined each application, and the committee was composed of gentlemen who wero intimate- ly acquainted with the valuation of farms in LIyn. With each application the committee were thoroughly satisfied. In some instances only throe-fourths of the money was asked, so that the county ran no risk. Mr J. Jones: Then, are wo always to look upon this committee as the valuers? £ Sr Mr Thomas: No. Mr Issard Davies: Would it not be better for the farmers to borrow at another place at I cheaper rates than can be obtained from the > County Council, who ties them down to one heavy note of interest for fifty years? Mr G. Jones asked who Mr Issard Davies meant whn he said that a friemdly neighbour had valued the farms? Mr Issard Da view: Mr Griffith Jones was the "'ü name given to me (laughter). Rev. W. Morgan (St. Ann s) pointed out that thr- question for the Council to consider was whether the oounty was in a safe position; not whether the tenants had made a good or a bad bargain. There were two questions ho desired to be eniightaned upon. First of all, had the Council any reason to think that they could bor- j row for eighty years? Secondly, was there any ''■ £ < eXpense to the county outside? Mr Jones Morris: You are in the wrong sec- tidffi. Rev. W. Morgan: I am asking the chairman; you are not, the chairman yet. Mr J. R. Hughes: He has been though. Mr Robert Thomas pointed out that the County Council acted, as landlord, and they must be satisfied that the tenant had not made a bad bargain when he purchased tho farm. The oounty could say if the tenant had paid too much for his farm: "You have made a bad bar- train, and we can't advance the money to you." Theoounty, he might point out, was i.n a posi- tion to advance up to eighty years. Mr W. J. Parry asked whether any provision was made to see that the farms wero properly farmed ? Mr Robert Thomas: Yes. The receipts will :h excoe l "he vxp?nditure, so as to leave a. margin f to cover cost, of management. It cannot be- come a cost, 10 the county. 1 Mr W. J. Parry: Is there any provision made in addition to -his 5 per cent, for the super* 7 vision of farms? Mr R. Thomas: Yes. Mr .1 Joner, W18 about to speak, when v • Mr J. R. Hugh<i8 rose to a-point of order. Mr J. Jones feraeastioallv): I thank you, Mr Hughes. Mr Hughes, my guardian, looks after me well (laughter). I want to know whether the Bjard of Agriculture can veto all these pro- ceedings? Tho Clerk The Board of Agriculture have nothing 10 do with this. I am afraid Mr Jones is confusing the two Acts. Mr Issard Davies said that the Council were sirrply in tho position of .mortgagees, without any rig-ht to inquire into the farming. The. Clerk. Oh, no. Mr J. T. Jones (Criccieth) was satisfied that the farms wore worth the money asked. A DANGEROUS PROCEEDING. Mr Richard Davies (Portmadoc) thought it would be a dangerous proceeding for the Council to go on any turtaer with the scheme without appointing a valuer (hear, hea.r). There were several reasons why a valuer should be appointed. Whilst there might be no danger with the farms under consideration, the Council might make a mistake in tihe iutute, and a mielake would damn the whole Act, and it could ,not be carried out. One way of destroying the Act would be by ad- vancing too much money. This would enhance the value, of land throughout the county, and high prices would rule at future sales. He hoped the Council would not pass any more of those resolutions without appointing an independ- ent valuer. if they did not do that they would geo into tioubie. Mr J. Evan Roberts asked how much per cent, the borrowei would have to pay, including the interest, the re-payment of capital, and expenses? Mr R. Thomas replied that upon a basis of 60 years at 3 per cent. I the. amount would be JB2 4 2s Od per half year; 50 years at 3 per cent., 4 £ 2 4s 5d; 80 years at,3f per cent., £ 1 19s 6*d. Mr Jones Roberts (Bangor) complained that the Council had Ctniy been supplied with hurried information, and he thought that the matter should be adjourned, so that fuller particulars could be obtained. Mr J. Jones agreed with this view, saying that, the proceedings had not been very business- like. The chairman had answered as well as he could, but more particulars were wanted. Mr Robert Thomas also thought that a valuer should be- appointed. The Chairman: That will be arranged under the scheme. A MEMBER'S SURPRISE. Mr Griffith Janes expressed great surpripe that a County Council almost entirely composed of Liberals were obstructing such a good measure. He wAs very surprised, and Mr Jones Roberts denied that he had ob- structed the scheme (cries of "Order"). Mr Richard Davies: It's me who's charged, not you (laughter). The recommendations of the committee were then unanimously carried Mr Richard Thomas, Carnarvon, hoped a va;uer would be appointed. The Clerk: If we are again placed in the same circumstances as we were placed in the present instance it will be impossible to have a eluer. Only this day week I received the ap- plications, and oompletkm was required by Feb- ruary 11th. Mr Richard Davies stated that the intended moving that no further advances be made with- out a valuation in the interests of the Council.

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