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THE ROYAL COMMISSION.

Newyddion
Dyfynnu
Rhannu

THE ROYAL COMMISSION. SITTING AT~CARMARTHEN, sittings of the Sunday Closing Commission I #oi'e/esuinea at Carmarthen on Tuesday. One F £ »• ln Particular was manifest in Tuea- giv 8easi°n, namely, that many of those who fcil! evidence largely discount its value by stating to, their own personal opinions, and being dj. to support those opinion by facts, when the to do so. In three or four instances Kto ct]airtnan a.«ked the witnesses for the ths*0^8 uPon which their views were based but tonr/lere unprepared to state any, or, perhaps, oni Ro oniy 8° far as to quote some one else's P oion in support of their own. To make that ,T0|Ution ol value," said the chairman to one, should like to know the grounds upon which i.p,s based." Afterwards he remarked, I you give me something more definite ? j iBi the evidence upon which that WOion has been formed." But the witnesses y able to give the facts, "I know that •aid T 6 forrned the opinion upon good grounds," j1!3 Lord Balfour to auother, but I want yon to littl 1e wfaat lhoS0 Rrouuds are*" Eut a*ai.D Of fi beyond the mere opinion was elicited. It is »hniSt IInportance that the defenders of the act th« Put statements of plain facts before jbnCcixl0i'ssioners. Opinions are forthcoming in »Bh?^ance» but the commissioners constantly th> *or ^act?, and upon these tbey will form to 4 0Wn opinions* The facts are ample th «0st'y not* merely the continuance of tea* • aot» lr'ut a'so an extension ° £ lts bn t,c^°os in the direction advocated by tem" En?6!00 reformers as well as all lovers of order. Jew, witnesses who coma forward are sadly th 'n ^is most essential duty. Months ago, "e necessity for furnishing this class of evidence Pointed out in theso columns, and it is, Bb erofore, the more inexcusable that gentlemen tb ould now come one after another and present t e opinions of a Sunday-school or a Good v^piars' Lodge—all very useful if supplemented '0 hard facts, but liable to heavy discount if not inn. suPP°rted. The friends of the act °'he eastern counties who may be corning for- to give evidence on the succeeding days of Week should be prepared to do something i 0Je than give their personal opinions they VaiVe tiuae t0 make evidence of real '"e. instead of its being one more drop in the j, °f mere opinion, by which the commissioners ^*0 been deluged. CHIEF CONSTABLE PHILIPPS. Mr William Philipps, Chief Constable of Car- j att')enshire, stated that he had held the position J r ypars, having been previously superinten- dent ior 19 years. The Sunday returns he laid the Commissioners were for the hours from ""dnight on Saturday to midnight on Sunday, pd he could not give a return showing the cases 'om 8ix o'clock on Sunday morning till six o'clock i11 Monlay moruing. The convictions for teaches of the Act had increased since 1883. •*•"6 effect of the Act had, ha considered, been Mod in the purely agricultural districts. The amouns of drunkenness as formerly was not h seen, but in the mining districts there J jaci latterly been a large increase of ^utikenness. At Llanelly, for instance, a iini 8Prang up at the end of 1887, and after a th it was perceived that drunkenness in • district was increasing. A prosecution was ^tituted, but the magistrates did not consider joe evideuca sufficient, and the club had continued *,8 operations, with the result that the number J* cases had, in the past three been 18, 67, and 90 respectively. «e increase had taken place in Llanelly and the Jj^ghbourhood alongside the mining districts. If vj19 Act had been as severely put into'operation at r'anelly as in the other divisions it would ?aTe had a good effect. There bad one hundred charges in witness's district the Sunday sale of drink. A heavy penalty °Qld hava stopped the illicit sales. The People generally were in favour of the j~c*» but in the neighbourhood of the ■^ses which were guilty of breaches ?« the law, it was difficult to get assistance to police, for the publicans and their friends kept **tch closely. The provisions of the Act were **»aed in the more populous districts. A number the license-holders had been convicted of ail(j their licenses endorsed—some taken ?.*ay$and he had no doubt that those convic- ,'ODs would have a good effect. As to the tbna-fide traveller, his own opinion was each case should be decided upon its merits. might be a bona-fide traveller when only °He mile from home, and another might not be if six miles from home. It was question of for the justices to decide. ..In reply to Sir R. Harington, witness stated tha urban districts were, before the act, generally sober, and there was not much differ- ?°ce. There was a little less drunkenness now, r°Wever. Scarcely any drunkenness was to be on Sunday. There bad been some cases of 8ales, and a few cases had been fought before the magistrates, but there was difficulty in detecting it. Unless the police JjODcealed themselves to watch the houses from •toot half-past one till two o'clock on Sunday joining, they could get no evidence. As to the JjBricultural districts, ha saw no material '"erence in the amount of drunkenness. The c'Ub at Llanelly to which he had referred "as now closed it had been successfully prose- 'fStod, and he didn't expect the police would be Rubied again by that. By Mr Hibbert: In cases where persons had summoned, the charge against them had dismissed if they could show they bad tra- ellejj three miles on the Sunday. There was^ a jf^oaendous amount of drinking at tha club in r'anelly—eighty persons were caughtthere. What Dow feared was that those persons would Ibri!^ 80Ine other mcde of evading the law might spring up. SUPERINTENDENT HARRIS. j.*olice-Superintendent Harris, who had been i a yeaio in the force, and bad bad experience of three police divisions of the county, said he as just now stationed at Carmarthen, almost an agricultural district. Hardly any ■j'tmkeuness prevailed on Sundays. Before the Passing of the act he was in a different division, ind, therefore, Olmld not make any comparison. 11 the purely agricultural parts there was hardly drunkenness but to the villages near the Z?wo a good many travellers went out on Sun- .&ye, as, for instance, from Carmarthen to Ferry- J'de. Persons went by train, and returned under 'he influence of drink. In his belief they went for the purpose of getting drink. No inter- ference with them was made by the police t? ^otlB as they were quiet. At Llanelly, before passing of the act, there was very little "unday drunkenness be very seldom saw people ln » condition that the police would take notice of. By Judge Lloyd: He bad no reason to sup- vpse that drink was laid in on Saturday nights in he agricultural districts. In his opinion it would advisablo to open the public-houses for an honr the middle of the day on Sundays for sale off .he premises. It would tend to lessen very much e number of travellers about tba country. MR W. O. BRIGSTOCKE. Air W. O. Brigstocke, chairman of the Car. ^arthea County Council and of the Cardigan 5°ard of Guardians presented resolutions 14 favour of the act passed by the conndj. had been, in his opinion, a benefit by bringing ™b°ut a general decrease of drunkenness. In toe ^'strict be lived in he had very few opportunities observing the operation of the act; but ha f.J.P. for the three counties, and could say tbat •here was a general diminution of Sunday especially in the mining districts. Ihere Ja8 less drunkenness in Llanelly since the passing Of the act. la further examination, the witness stated that, regards the bona-fide traveller limit, he *°ugly recommended tbat it should a that the question be left to the discretion of S magistrates. At railway stations, only f'aveliers should be supplied; not merely those Arsons who had taken a ticket. ..Replying to Viscount Emlyn, the witness stated there had been a great reformation in New- -^tle Emlyn in the matter of drunkenness since passing of the Act. He believed there was no Itiday drinking there. MR J. D. MORSE. J. D Morse, a member of the Carmarthen ^°ttnty Council, living ati I,1.an.vt™ witness. Ha said he had had 27 years j^owledge of the neighbourhood, and could say the act had lessened drunkenness. Before it passed he used often to see drunken 1persons when his way to a place of worship, but be did not such persons about now. T tiaugharne had remaiked to him about tha "amber of persons who went to that place for the Jole purpose of obtaining drink. He bad letters from the rectors of Llandawke and Llanddowror In favonr of the act. DR JOHN HUGHES. Mr J. Hughes, surgeon, Carmarthen, chairman Of the board of guardians, said the effect of the *ct had been very good. It had secured a diminu- tion of drunkenness. Before the act was in opera- ^ion it was very common to see drunken men in tbe streets at all times of the day. This was not the case at the present time. It would not be to state tbat the improvement In the streets of Carmarthen had been gained at the expense of |jhe surrounding districts. In his opinion, Jhe mere fact of a man having gone three miles ?id not constitute bim a bona-fide traveller. He handed in a petition in favour of the act from the '^habitants of Carmarthen. It had, he said, been Blllled by 1,610 persons, of whom nine were fipblitjans. The petition came to bim from the Nonconformist ministers; but tbey bad not been ?ble to canvass tha whole town, aud no one under years of age had been allowed to sign. He had \lf>oa petition from the inhabitants of Pensa.rn,de- ^aringthat the oct tended to diminish drnnken- tA'88 and its attendant evils. MR JOHN LEWIS. Mr John Lewis, woollen manufacturer JohnB- Wn, Carmarthen, said be employed 20 or 25 Arsons. Two or three of them, not sober men, »"Uo0s'.ry™^™M»d»X B»fo« tb. Jr„uk.rd. on Neighbourhood where he lived. Sin Sjdn't know that there had been °°e.. net:tlo ^e was one of those who took roun Mr Hughes bad laid before tlie ooimmis- filers, and wished to 8ay that tboy b 1 -0 refusals to sign. MR D. L. JONES. Mr D. L. J.on(", farmer, of Llanllawddog, de- ?J*red that the effect of the act bad been (?°°d» "ere being now less Sunday drinking on l"0 Part Of farm servants. REV J. WYNDHAM LEWIS. The Itev J. Wyudham Lewis, wbo, with the T. Job (Convvil), appeared as the lepresenta- Jives of the Calvinistic Methodist denomination support the act, observed that in the opinion of the members and adherents of the connection the act was one of the greatest boons ever con- ferred upon the country. He had known the whole of Wales for 30 years and could testify that the Improvement was general. He could not say that any places in Carmarthenshire had been made worse in consequence of the act, except, perhaps, Ferryside and Llanstephan, to which places cheap trains were run from Llanelly and Carmarthen. Since the act had been in force he had seen only one drunken man. He should like the three mila limit extended, and the bona-fide traveller clause more clearly defined. The onus of proof should be on the traveller. In his opinion it was a violation of Bible precepts for a man to personate a traveller in order to get drink on Sundays. The Chairman: With you it is a matter of Sabbath observance rather than of temperance?— Witness I should say both. REV T. JOB. The Rev T. Job stated that he saw sickening spectacles of drunkenness before the act was in operation, but since then there had been a marked improvement. Before 1882 farm servants went to public-houses instead of to divine service, and they would go to the public-houses, too, after evening service was over. The publicans, some of them, were in favour of the act. He bad met one quite recently who asked him if he were going to appear before the commissioners, and remarked, "For goodness sake, let them stick to the act." He bad replied, "And you're a pub- lican?" and the answer was "Yes, but not a sinner." (Laughter.) There were larger congre- gations at evening services, and the Sunday schools were more flourishing. MR D. WILLIAMS. Mr D. Williams, checkweigher, who bad known Carmarthen for 21 years, spoke of improvement ia the men with whom he worked, about 230 in number. Formerly, on the Monday following pay day, men were absent from work, and now this evil had greatly diminished. In the street where he lived he now hardly ever (law a man drunk on Sundays, whereas, before the act was passed, there were many to be seen each Sunday. Much of the improvement in the younger men aud the lads he attributed to more general partici- pation in athletics and to the cultivation of music, MR LEWIS BISHOP. Mr Lewis Bishop, clerk to the magistrates of Llandilo division, was next called. Ha bad known the district since 1868. If anything, there was now slightly more drunkenness than formerly. He had noticed more, and there were more con- VITh°enS'Chairman (looking at a return) The statistics for the county show a slight decrease.— Witness: That may be. I am speaking of Llandilo. mi Amongst all classes of the population 7-The labouring class. To what cause do you attribute the increase They go out of town; and when there, get more drink than they need. They are seen more openly 1—Yes, no doubt. Continuing, the witness expressed a preference for the opening of the public-houses during one hour in the middle of the day and an hour at night. He thought the bona-tide traveller limit should be extended. Having taken great trouble to find out the opinions of persons iu the neighbourhood, he could not find that approval of the act whfch others bad mentioned. He did not approve of leaving to the discretion of the magistrates the decision whether a man was a boua-fido traveller or not. It would increase the number of cases. He preferred a six-mile limit to be established, The Chairman; Where do you find in the act a provision that a man who goes three miles is a traveller within the meaning of the act, and there- fore entitled to be supplied with drink ?—I do not know that it is specified. But it has been the practice all tbrougb the country. Have you ever heasd it suggested that the object of inserting those words was not to make a definition of the bona-fide traveller, but to fix a minimum below which no one should be consi- dered bona-fide ?—I have not looked at it in that light. Mr Hibbert How is it that if tnere is such a general agreement of opinion against the act as you have found that we have no memorial or public meeting in favour of modifying the act ?— I don't know. There has not been a meeting for or against in our neighbourhood. Do you suppose that it a public meeting were hold, there would be any probability of agree- ment ?—Yes| if Sabbatarians and teetotalers were excluded. That is excluding the greater part of the popu- lation 1—Tbat may be. Are you aware that in other counties numerous benches of magistrates read the law differently from your opinion ?—I am ignorant of that. By Viscount Emlyn There was much evasio n of the act, and it had increased since the passing of the act. The Commissioners at this stage adjourned for lunch. Oa resuming, PRINCIPAL EDWARDS. Rev T. C. E iwar is, M.A., D.D., principal of Aberystwyth University College, >aid he bad known the town since 1872. He testified from personal experience that in Meriionethshire the act had effected much good. As to details, be was not prepared to specify anything that had not been mentioned already. He admitted that there had been an improvement as regards tem- perance before 1881, but it was accelerated by the act. He was born in Bala, and knew the condi- tion of the place now; there bad been great improvement. REV DR G. PARRY. Rev. Griffith Parry, the moderator of the Calvinistic Methodists Assembly held at Llan- gollen- in May last, presented a resolution passed by that body in support of the act, and suggesting the amendment of the bona-fide clause. REV. THOMAS LEVI. The Rev Thomas Levi, Aberystwyth, presented resolutions in favour of the act from the County Council of Cardiganshire, the Aberystwyth School Board, the Methodist ministers of North Cardi- ganshire, and the Nonconformist churches of Aberystwyth. He advocated eliminating the bona-fide clause. Many parsous took Sunday journeys in order to evade the act; and if the elimination of the clause caused them inconveni- ence, it would be for their own good. Sir R. Harington asked witness if he were a teetotaler and the witness remarked that that question was put rather often to those who sup- ported the act. He was not present as an abstainer, not representing any total abstinence body or society. He had no objection to answer the question. The Chairman Will you kindly say this i you have no objection ?—Yes, I am. MR GEORGE GREEN. Mr George Green, proprietor of engineering works at Aberystwyth, and an ex-mayor of the town, stated that his employes worked much better since the ael had been in operation. Before then, on Saturdays during busy times he was continually iu perplexity as to whether the men would be at their work on Monday morning. Since then, almost invariably, the men were duly at work. YVhereas be used frequently to see persons intoxicated in the streets on Sundays, be had not seen one since the act had been in force. In addition to his engineering works, be was con- nected as manager with some mines, and could give testimony of similar effect concerning the miners. Much bad been said of the opinions and feeling of workmen concerning the act, and he, therefore, on Saturday last asked his men to express an opinion. Out of 54 present 53 voted in favour of the act. He laia before the commis- sioners a resolution passed on Monday by the Aberystwyth Town Council favouring the con- tinuance of the act, and submitted police statistics for the town showing that whereas during the seven years prior to its operation there bad been 33 convictions for Sunday drunkenness, during seven years afterwards there were but three such convictions. Soma people, he said, professed a great carefulness to preserve to the working man bis beer but he (Mr Green) having been a working man himself, could not see where the workman found money for beer. His average earnings were little enough for other purposes without beer. His own view would be in favour of closing the public-houses on Saturday afternoons as well as Sundays. (Laughter.) Of the two he would choose to see them shut on the Saturdays. He had excep- tional opportunities of knowing the opinion of people, for he went about seeing to the erection of mining machinery, which he made; and from all quarters he heard favourable views expressed as to the operation of the measure, MR D. LLOYD. Mr D. Lloyd, solicitor, Lampeter, clerk to the magistrates, referred to the evils arising out of the grant of occasional licences. He instanced one village of 20 houses, of which 16 held licenses on the occasion of a fair. The drink was not all sold out during the fair, and illicit sale went on afterwards in those bouses until the drink was consumed. He had made representations to the magistrates in regard to this, and a resolution was passed at quarter sessions in favour of restricting the issue of Buch licences. But, inasmuch as the law gave power of grant to a single magistrate, the resolution of quarter sessions was pracfcisally inoperative. THE REV. G. BANCROFT. The Rev George Bancroft, of Bethesda, Saun. dersfoot, declared bis conviction that the improve- ment since the act bad been passed, so far as re- garded both the appearance of the streets and the people themselves, was marked. He bad endeavoured to obtain an ex- pression of opinion from the local school board, but the chairman raled him out of order. Ho had, therefore, called a public meeting at a coffee tavern, and a similar meeting was held at Be<relly. Working men composed those meetings, not teetotalers only, but working men of all sorts, and it was their unanimous opinion that the act should be sustained. He bad, too, the result of a canvass made at St Isseli s, and there were 4Q( in favour, with only six against the act. Three of the six wore publicans, and two others had interest in public-house property. As to the views of the working classes generally,be should say this—that if he were asked to find a sober, steady man who was against the act, he did not know where to look for one, although he knew almost every per- son in Saundersfoot. Witness caused some amuse- ment by suggesting that the Welsh members of Parliament might bo nominated as a grand committee to draw up an amendment of tbe bona-fide traveller clause which would be acceptable to the principality. In response to further questions he stated tha" persons who, before the act 'would spend time in public- houses on Snnday were now to be found in places of worship, MR R. IVEMEY. Mr R. Ivemey, fitter at the dockyard.Pembroke Dock, said he had been there 27 years. Since the temptation was removed, and especially since the stringent administration of tha act, there had boen a marked improvement iu the conduct of the people. A canvass was made of the towns, and in Pembroke Dock there were 918 in favour of the act, 330 against, and 7 neutral. In Pembroke 386 were in favour of the act and 121 against, Toe Pembroke Dock assentors included justices of the peace, ministers of religion, members of the county council, and one large owner of pubfic- houses. He bad had contact; with woiking men, and knew they wished the act continued, while others had been reformed through its iufluence by the removal of the temptations. He would have the-bona-fide traveller clause eliminated to give those employed at public-houses a chance of a day of rest. The men at the dockyards bad been more regular in coming to work un Monday since the passing of the act. He would allow a bona-fide traveller to have refreshments provided it was proved that he was really bona fide. He would prefer that the number of public-houses open to the bona-fide traveller should be very limited. MR WILLIAM WILLIAMS. Mr W. Williams, shipwright at Pembroke Dock, spoke of the disorder which he said pre- vailed in the town on Sunday evenings before the act came into force. There bad been a great change since. Young men who bad been led astray" bad told him that Sunday was their worst day; and he was certain that the opinion he expressed in favour of the act was the opinion of the majority of the employed at the dockyard. Formerly there would be 60 or 70 men at a time "go up" for not being at work, but at present they bad hardly one. MR MORGAN GRIFFITHS. Mr Morgan Griffiths, solicitor, Carmarthen, clerk to the magistrates for the divisions of Car- marthen, St Clear's, and Llanboidy, stated that the practice as to construction of the bona fide traveller clause was, in his districts, diffsrentfrom that which had been stated by Mr Lewis Bishop. He bad always advised the magistrates that the three-mile limit was the minimum which would entitle a person to be considered a bona fide traveller, and the magistrates invariably inquired into the circumstances, the onus of proof being on the accused person. In reference to Evasions of the act in Carmarthen, the houses in the town were so constructed that evasion was easy. This was the last witness called, and the com- missioners adjourned the inquiry to Llanelly.

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