Welsh Gazette and West Wales Advertiser

CHIEF CONSTABLESHIP OF CARDIGANSHIRE. MEETING OF THE STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE. County Council Representatives Speak Out. COUNTERBLAST TO HOME OFFICE INTRIGUE. Inspector Edward Williams, of Liverpool, Appointed. A* important meeting of the Cardigan- shire Standing Joint Police Committee was held on Thursday last, January 14th. at the Town Hail, Lampeter. The Home Office had reiterated their refusal to approve of the appointment of Sergeant and Chief Cfferk Richard Jones as Chief Constable, and Mr. Willis Bund had given notice that lie would move that Deputy Chief Constable David Williams, oflianityssul be appointed. In strong contrast to a special meeting of the oom.mittee held about a month pre- viously. when only the County Council re- presentatives, and Major Pryse Ire wee, as representing the Court et Quarter of Ses- sions, were present there was at this meet- ing a full attendance of members. Those present were Mr. Edward Jones, Talybont (chairman), presiding; Colonel Davies Evans, Highmead (Lord Lieutenant): Alderman, Peter Jones, Alderman C. M. Williams, and Mr. D. C. Roberts, Aberystwyth; Dr. Jen- kyn Lewis, Llanon • Alderman Evan Rich- ards, Penuwch; Aldermao J M. Howell, Aberayron Mr. James James, Ffynonhowel; Capt. W. Davies. Rhydowen fach, Llandys- sul; Mr. Willis Bund, Alderman D. J. Wil- liams, Tregaron; Mr. David Davies, Llan- ddewi Brefi; Mr. Morgan Evans, Oakford; Major Hughes, Alltlwyd; Capt. Stewart, Altyrodyh; Mr. Inglis Jones, Derry Ormond, Mr. J. Francis. Wallog; Major Price Lewes, Tyglyn Aeron; Dr. Joshua Powell, New- castle Emlyn; Rev. R. T. Davies, Llan- ddewi Brefi; Rev. J. M. Griffiths, Llansam- let; Rev. D. Griffiths, Llangcranopr; and Mr. David Davies, Velindre; with Mr. H. C. Pryer (clerk), and Superintendent Thomas Phillips (acting chief constable.) A LLANGRANOG CASE. The Clerk reported having received long communications from Mr. David Griffiths, of the Post Office, Llangranog, in reference to a case heard some four or five years ago. He found fault with the magistrates, with the Chief Constable, with the Deputy Chief Constable and everybody else. As the cor- respondence was so voluminous he suggested that it be referred to the Finance Committee Mr. Willis Bund, in moving that the mat- ter be referred to the Finance Committee, said Mr. Griffiths had been good enough to favour him with three closely-written sheets of foolscap, in which he found fault with the law of perjury. He qurEe agreed with him on that. Mr. Griffiths also found fxult with the action of the late Chief Constable and the action of the Deputy Chief Constable and, he thought, with everybody, including his own solicitor. He also found fault with himself for not appealing against an order ,c made upon him. He told Mr. Griffiths he oould do nothing for him, and advised him to send it to the member for the countv suggesting that the law of perjury be al- tered. Mr. C. M. Williams seconded the proposi- tion, which was carried. A QUESTION OF COSTS. The Clerk reported further upon corres- pondence received from Mr. Thomas, Plas, Aberporth, respecting a case of theft in whioh his own son was made complainant. and in which the magistrates of the Petty Sessional division of Troedyraur made an order upon him to pay the costs. Mr. Tho- mas now wished to know whether the magis- trates had power to make such an order. Mr. Willis Bund said he had referred the magistrates' clerk to the section in Stone's Justices Manual" which said the costs would have to be paid in the ordinary course. and that there was no power to make Mr. Thomas pay the costs. He (Mr. Bund) thought there must have been some mistake in the matter, and. therefore, he suggested that the Clerk should call Mr. Picton Evans' attention to the note, and ask why he de- parted from the practice there laid down, and whether there was any more modern Act under which he advised the justices to do so. He would not like to say anything until the had got Ir. Picton Evans' rer' He proposed that the matter be refenea to the Finance Committee. Alderman D. J. Williams seconded, and this was agreed to. FINANCE COMMITTEE. FINANCE COMMITTEE. AldermanC. M. Williams proposed, and Captain W. Davies seconded, the adoption of the Finance Committee's report, recom- mending payments amounting to £ 81 6s. 2d., and this was carried. QUARTERLY REPOKi. PROTEST BY MR. WILLIS BUND. Mr, Willis Bund protested against the acceptance of the quarterly police report ApL-esented by Superintendent 'ihos. Phillips, acting chief constable, on the grounds that the committee had no power to appoint such an official as acting chief constaole. There ought to have been a report from the statu- tory officer who held the post down to the middle of November. The Clerk said Superintendent Phillips bad presented the report at his suggestion, fxieing that the Committee, as far as their vote was concerned, had appointed him act- ing chief constable. Alderman J. M. Howell asked if Mr. Bund wished to move a vote of censure on the Deputy Chief Constable for not making a rsport. Mr. Bund: I am not asking a vote of cen- sure, but simply calling attention to the fact that an officer was presenting a quarter- ty report for a time he certainly was not legally in office. Alderman J. M. Howell: There certainly ought to be some object in calling attention to it. Mr. Bund: My object. is that an illegal thing shall not pass without a protest. Alderman Peter Jones said he thought if they would only recall the circumstances under which it had arisen that would sin plify inatters very jnuch. III view of tin' refusal of the Home Secretary to confirm the ap- pointment they had made the committee fead no alternative but- to make a temporary appointment. As to the legality of it, he £ ons: 'red_ the conduct of the Home Office MiiSeieut justification fo- the proceed- » tng" ih-iy had takea. Mr. Bund's objection < eeeinn I to him a c:o,se of splitting hnirs, or a case 01 aid « tw^eclo-uum." J Dr Foweli tbovght after th,, pro?*Mst f"om < Y.I.r. V illis Bund and the explanation from Mr. Peter Jones, he felt himself it • a a ) amp 1] matter, u ^er! to propo- thlt tÇev receive fo' Wh1t, it ":1 w-rth re- fxmx of hc Ac' i IT O-V-f Pov. J. M. Griffiths seoon^fv1. TV Lev D. Griffiths -srid it wm r question 4F. j- or;. If the appoi:itnvor;t Vina illegal then the expenses would be sur- charged (laughter). I Mr. D. C. Roberts: Capital idea, that! Rev. D. Griffiths: Pounds, shillings, and pence that (renewed laughter.) Before the report was adopted, Mr. Bund moved to omit the paragraphs dealing with increases of pay to constables and promo- tions, because in his view it was clearly il- legal. The increases could only be made by a Chief Constable. He did not want the men to suffer, and when they had ap- pointed a Chief Constable, he would be quite prepared to move, if he thought right, that their pay should date back from the 13th September when the increases were made. Alderman C. M. Williams said Superin- tendent Phillips had simply acted on the scale already adopted by the committee. The committee had drawn up a scale, and these promotions and increases worked automatically. Alderman Peter Jones said the suggestion made by Mr. Bund was that they should do an illegal act to cover what he considered an illegal act in the first instance. Mr. Bund: Nothing of the kind. Alderman Jones: Pardon me, I will eluci- date it now. You say you have no objection to their receiving this pay. But they could not do it retrospectively. Therefore, if they had no right to pass it in this form now, they would certainly hire. eght to eiri-y into effect what had been suggested by Mr. Bund himself. Mr. Bund: This is very lovely. Here is that yoar remedy is an illegal act to cover Mr. Williams saying it is automatic, and Mr. Peter Jones saying it is illegal to give it on that date. Alderman Peter Jones: The absurdity is what you say is an illegal act, but which I contend is not. Mr. Williams' contention is a right one. The increases work auto- matically. There was no seconder to Mr. Bund's amendment, and the report, on being put to the meeting, was carried wit honly one dis- sentient. THE HOME SECRETARY'S REPLY. The Glerk read the following letter re- ceived from the Home Office:- Whitehall, 23rd December, 1903. 1 Sir,— I am directed by the Secretary of State to acquaint you, for the information of the Standing Joint Committee for Cardi- ganshire, that the fullest consider- ation has been given to your letter of the 14th instant, and to the reasons therein given for appointing Sergt. Jones to be Chief Constable of the County, but he has come to the conclusion that he must adhere to the conclusion already com- municated to you in the matter. With reference to your letter of the 11th inst. in which you intimate that at a meeting of the Standing Joint Committee on the 10th Superinten4lent Thomas Phillips was appointed temporary Acting Chief Con- stable of the Cardiganshire Police Force, I am directed by Mr. Akers Douglas to say that he is advised that the Committee have no power to make such an appointment, and that his approval would in no way legalise the present position. Under the County Police Acts no member of the force can legally be appointed or dismissed except by a Chief Constable, and in other ways the proper administration of the force is prac- ticaily impossible without such an officer. I am, Sir, Your obedient servant. M. D. CHALMERS. The Clerk to the Cardiganshire Standing Joint J Committee, Alderman J. M. Howell said at the last meeting they directed the Clerk to ask the iiouie Secretary in addition to re-affirming the appointment of Sergeant Jones, to be kind enough to forward to them any corres- pondence on this subject that he might have received. Did the Clerk write to that effect. The Clerk: Yes, I particularly asked that the correspondence might be forwarded, but there is no reference whatever in the reply. Captain Davies: Your letter was ignored on that point. Dr Jenkyn Lewis thought it was a matter of importance to have the correspondence submitted to them. He might suggest that if any member of the committee had writ- ten to the Home Office that he should submit a copy of that letter to them. If he had received any reply he did not think it would be any breach of honour to submit that as well. Let them have everything above board. Mr. D. C. Roberts asked that the letter sent by Mr. Fryer to the Home Office should be read. The Clerk said it was a long letter, but if it was the wish of the committee he would read it. Mr. D. C. Roberts: Hoii-prei- long it is, I have come down from Aberystwyth, and am prepared to spend the day here now. The Clerk then read the letter which was as follows:— County Council Office, Aberystwyth. December 14th 1903. Sir,—Your letter of the 14th ult. with enclosure was laid before the Standing Joint Committee on the 10th inst. The refusal of the Secretary of State to approve of the appointment of Sergeant and Chief Clerk R. Jones as Chief Constable is a deep disappointment to the Committee who feel convinced that were Sergeant Jones qualifications rightly known to Mr. Akers Douglas, and the circumstances of the County with its very small Police Force given adequat econsideration his approval would have been withheld. The Committee, therefore, passed a re- solution confirming the appointment and directing me to lay before you the special reasons which prompt them to consider that the duties of Chief Constable can and will, be satisfactorilv performed hy the Officer appointed and £ <? express their earnest hope that the Secretary of State will reconside'- nj decision. I was also directed to mnke the following request:— the Committee understand that I communications have bee made to the De- by members of their Body pro- testing against Sergeant Jones' appointment a-'d they, especially the County Council mem- "q, re^pt-ff fully ask that Mr. Akers Douglas v. ill favour them with copies of the correspondence in O'der that they may have -jnport unity of controverting any state- ments which they may believe to be inac- 'I curate or which in their opinion may con- vey an erroneous impression of facts. And in this connection I think it only proper that I should advert, as has no doubt been done in the communications referred to, to the unfortunate divergence of opinion between the members of the committee ap- pointed by Quarter Sessions and those re- presenting the. County Council upon the question of this appointment. There was as I believe, a general concurrence in favour of promoting an Officer of the Force. The Quarter Session Members, not one of whom is a member of the County Council desired the appointment of Mr. Williams who has held the office of Superintendent for 21 years. The County Council Members being more directly regardful of the financial aspect of the question, objected to appoint an officer of his age, 58, tearing a heavy charge on the Pension Fund, at an early date. The operation of the Police Act. 1890, has largely increased the number of Pensioners; of these there are now 10, a large number proportionate to a force of 41 all told, and the aggregate pensions now exceed JE500 per annum. This state of things the County Council view with alarm especially as other pensions will be claimed shortly and many of the pensioners, being kale and hearty and but slightly over the age limit fi 55 years, may be expected to draw their pensions for many a year. The Council Members, there- fore, including among them the Chairman and several prominent members of the Fin- ance Committee, strongly object to an appointment which they consider certain to place an additional heavy charge within very few years upon the pension fund, and ulti- mately as they fear, upon the County Rate. They consequently support the younger officer, whom they also believe by character and abilities to be best qualified for the post, and that for the following reasons amongst others: — The late Chief Constable, who himself rose from the ranks not only raised the Force to a higher level of efficiency than it has ever before reached, but so performed his duties as to gain the esteem and con- fidence of the whole County from the Jus- tices down to the humblest inhabitant. Sergeant Jones after 10 years service in his office, during the last w years in the most intimatG and confidential relations with him, has become so thoroughly versed in his policy and methods and so imbued with his spirit that the Committee believe there is a prospect, almost amounting to a certainty, that he will keep the Police Force up to its present high level. Several members of theCommittee have served upon the Body ever since its forma- tion, they have taken the greatest interest in the Police, and kept themselves well informed with regard to the individual members of the Force, and serving on the Finance Committee, have had special oppor- tunities of judging of Sergeant Jones's pro- ficiency in every branch of clerical duty and of his thorough acquaintance with adminis- trative police work. They have seen the more than ordinary intelligence which he has brought to bear upon every kind of police duty—and there was hardly any branch in which his services were not requisitioned by the late Chief. Whether in drilling the constables in teach- ing the young recruits their duties, in in- structing members of the Force in ambu- lance work, in photographing criminals and learning the means oi identification by finger print or in branch requiring special intelligence Sergeant Jones was the officer always selected for the duty. Some of the members have also had oppor- tunities of hearing Jones give evidence and conduct cases in the Petty Sessional Courts, and they have been much struck with his knowledge of the Criminal Law and with the ability, tact. and fairness with which he has conducted cases entrusted to him. Upon every ground then the Committee appeal, and appeal with confidence to the Secretary of State not to override the con- firmed opinion and judgment of those who know the circumstances of the County per- fectly,, who are intensely anxious to promote its good government and who have had many years experience of the man whose services they desire to secure as Chief Constable. They are firmly of opinion that in this case no ill effects will follow the promotion of a junior officer to the post. As Chief Clerk he now in reality holds the third place in the Force, the only two sup- erior officers being the two superintendents one of whom has passed the age of 58. and the other is several years older. By the Sergeants and Constables Sergeant Jones has ben for some time always looked to for advice and assistance in difficulties. They acknowledge his superior ability, knowledge, and judgment, and they have hailed with enthusiasm the prospect of having him as their Chief. The Committee belieje., too, that were Sergenat Jones a military man or civilian with no knowledge of police duties, so ob- jection oould have been raised to his appoint- ment, and they consider that it would amount to something more than an anomaly were the knowledge and experience he has gained by 12 years' service held to constitute an insuperable objection. In conclusion, I am desired to remind the Secretary of State that the Force is a very small one to command, 38 sergeants and constables only, so that a military chief con- stable would be entirely out of place; that excellent results followed the appointment the late Chief Constable who had only reached the rank of Inspector when appoint- ed that in borough towns withl considerable larger police forces than ours sergeants have been appointed with none of the bad results feared by the Secretary of State, but alto- gether reverse. The Committee, therefore, trust that the Secretary of State will in this case waive his objections and confirm the appointment of Sergeant and Chief Clerk Richard Jones. I am, Sir, Your obedient Servant, H. C. FRYER. Major Lewis said he learnt from that letter tor the first time that the question of Mr. Williams' age was raised oy any gentle- man on the other side. At no meeting that he was present at was the question 01 Mi. Williams' age raised, but in the letter it was mentioned. All through the letter it seemed to give the impression that the whole committee agreed. Certainly, the majority oi the committee agreed but he was also present, and he thought he should have been consulted or informed of what was to be said in the letter. A person read- ing that letter would think that all the members of the committee were agreeable to it. Colonel Davies Evans said it was a very interesting letter they had had read. He was not going to criticise the letter, although there was barely a point in it not open to criticism, but the main point in that letter placed before the Rome Office was not based upon fact. He quite agreed with Major Lewis. He was present <:t the preliminary meeting when the six candidates out of a great number were chosen. He was present at a subsequent meeting of the full com- mittee, when the whole matter was gone into. Not one word .vas-said at either of those meeting as to the financial question or the question of age. The Clerk said he was not himself present at the meeting when the appointment was made. Most of this arose liom the direc- tions given at the last meeting, when the bulk of the members present were County Council members. That point he rather emphasized, and he was told by the Chair- man that a strong feeling existed among the members representing the County Council on the matter of pension. He also told him that not only the members of this committee, but many other members of the County Council, had asked him not to assent, if he could possibly help it to the appointment of a person of Mr. Williams' age, because they particularly feared a heavy charge on the pension fund. Colonel Evans had said that a great many of these points were not based on fact, but Colonel Evans was not present at the last meeting, when this discussion took place. Major Lewis was present, and he believed some objection was raised. Major Lewis: The question of age was never mentioned. The Clerk said he was not present when the division took place on the matter, but he was told particularly by the Chairman that it was a very important point consider- ed by the County Council members in the decision they came to. And he was told particularly to make a point of it. Colonel Evans: If I may be allowed to speak again for a moment, I don't think orr Clerk need interfere in our discussions. | I hove stated what is a fact. } Alderman Peter Jones: But you wera not p'es.nit at the lest mc ring. Colonel F.villl: said he was, uifoi tunateiy, ) ill i.i bed. -\t:d Le would Til. :>> -«y «/■•» on that question. But the main point of the letter was the question of finance, and not one word nuance wn.< spoken o.f "by any of the County Council members at either the preliminary meeting or at the meeting when the appointment was made. And not [ouly that, but the County Council were in a majority at the committee meeting, and selected Superintendent Williams as one of the six candidates; thus giving a complete refutation to that letter. Alderman Peter Jones: What is a refuta- tion. Colonel Evans, proceeding, said as the Clerk had been allowed to reier to import- ant business done at the last meeting, he wished to say that there were some remarks passed at that meeting which he must con- fess, he was surprised at. One member of the County Council accused them of coward- ice. Gentlemen, he was mot afraid to meet them any day. He was very glad always (laughter). It always was a pleasant duty (more laughter.) Several Members: Who used the word cowardice. Colonel Evans: It appeared in the press. It was used by Mr. Morgan Evans, and he was sure the word passed him unguardedly. He was sure if Mr. Evans knew what offence that word might have given he would have Been the first to withdraw it. He, himself, was dangerously ill in bed, and he knew of another member of the committee who was in the same boat. Alderman Peter Jones: But where were the other nine. There was only one present. Colonel Evans: I gave an explanation of my absence. Mr. Morgan Evans said as his name had been referred to, he begged to say that he never made such a remark. What he said was that seeing that out of twelve of the Quarter Sessions members only one was pre- sent. it seemed to him that they tried to fight shy of this committee, in some way or other. Colonel Evans: The word used was cowar- dice. Mr. Morgan Evans: I never used the word Colonel Evans: It appeared in the press. Mr. Morgan Evans: I am not responsible for that. What I did say, and still stick to, was that seeing that out of twelve mem- bers only one was present that it appeared to him that you were fighting shy of this committee and wire-pulling or something somewhere else (hear, hear). The Rev. Daniel Griffiths said he had read three or four reports in different papers, and they all agreed in saddling that word on Mr. Morgan Evans. The reporters were present, and they might have their notes, and, per- haps, they would relieve them out of the difficulty (laughter). Mr. Morgan Evans: The words I used were that they were fighting shy of this com- mittee, and I stick to it. The Rev. J. M. Griffiths said he for one was not fighting shy. He had other duties to attend to, and it was impossible for him to be present at the last meeting, otherwise lie would have been there. He was quite well. Mr. Morgan Evans: There was only one out of twelve present" Mr. D. C. Roberts said there had been a suggestion as to the possibility of Mme mem- bers having corresponded with the Home Office, and that they be invited to produce the correspondence that day. But he was somewhat surprised that when that sugges- tion was made no one got up and said they had not been in correspondence with the Home Office. There had been great anxiety to protest in certain directions that morn- ing, but in this no one had protested or disputed that there might have been corres- pondence between some members and the Home Office. He would like to know whet- her there had been any correspondence of thrt kind. They were told at the meeting at which Sergeant Jones was firsb appointed that there would be correspondence, and that they would hear more of it. The Rev. Mr. Griffiths said so, and they would like very much to know what that correspon- dence was, and what had been the replies. He did not charge any member with cowar- dice, but he would like to know something in reference to this correspondence. Dr. Powell: I think Mr. Roberts has very skilfully tried to draw a red herring across what we have now in hand. Mr. Roberts said he had no red herrings. Dr. Powell said what they had to consider was that letter drawn up by the Clerk. It contained statements which he did not think hda come from the committee. Mr. D. C. Roberts objected to Dr. Powell's remarks on a point of order. He was sorry to interrupt, but presumed he had a right to finish what he had to say. Dr. Powell: 1: beg your pardon. You can proceed. Rev. J .M. Griffiths: Please expedite Rv. J. M. Griffiths: Please Ofcpediate matters. Mr. D. C. Roberts: We have plenty of time. Don't hurry. Mr. Roberts went on to say that he was pleased to hear the letter written by their Clerk. He was somewhat surprised at the protest that had been made. He was certain that the points mentioned by Mr. Fryer were points that had been well in the minds of every member. He could not say that Colonel Evans or any other member had stated them definitely, but the points were felt very strongly by every mem- ber of the County Council. # He rather thought that at the small committee at the Town Hall, at Aberystwyth that met to se- lect candidates that Superintendent Wil- liams' age was pointed out. Colonel Evans (indignantly): It was never mentioned at all. I can swear to it. Mr. Roberts: I don't want you to swear to anything. I will take your wõrd without that. Major Price Lewes: Another police officers age was mentioned, and that was the one from Carnarvonshire. Mr. Roberts: It is certainly a fact that the age of every candidate was drawn on the list that we had before us. Major Lewis: It was, but I do think we went into the matter of age. Mr. Roberts said the question of age was an 'important one in its influence upon them individually. The points raised by Mr. Fryer were facts. It seemed to him that all they desired as a committee was that the whole question should be put fairly before the Home Office, and Mr. Fryer, in his letter, had put fairly before the Home Office the whole case for the appointment of Sert. Jones. And he presumed that because he had put the case so strongly and fairly that that was the reason why some protested so much. In the face of that, they had had this answer from the Home Secretary refus- ing to confirm this appointment. Why was that ? He underetood there had been cases of confirmation of Chief Constables who had not been i nthe army or the police force. and who had had no experience of any kind. Here they had selected a man who was, un- I doubtedly, qualified, and who had had twelve years' experience, while the office of Chief Clerk which he held put him next in rank to Chief Constable. Mr. David Davies: Has he had any exper- ience outside Aberystwyth i' Mr. Roberts replied that he had been in Cardigan. He was surprised that they should have had such a reply from the Home Office after such a strong case had been put before them. Tf Superintendent Williams had been elected by a majority of this com- mittee he would have accepted the appoint- ment without any question. He felt strongly that it was unfair that when an appointment had been made after carefal consideration that the Home Office should step in in the y they had done to veto that appointment when it had nothing more to pmt before thorn than the fact that the man did not hold a high enough rank. There was. no doubt about it that if there had been a vacancy that Sergeant Jones would have been raised to the position of Superintend- ent, and if that had occurred, he presumed the Home Office would have had no reason to d'pnvove o*1 the appointment. Why had they done it? It seemed to him they olIr,ht to have the full correspondence before them. He would be glad to hear the mem- bers on the other side speak out and say what had taken place. Colonel Evans: Instead of throwing kites to try and find cut which way the wind is blowing, why not ask some individual mem- ber whether he has been in correspondence I with the Home Office. Mr. D. C. Roberts: I don't know who vas b< '■ Colonel Evans: You are just flying a kite to find out if anyone has. Colonel Evans: You are just flying a kite to find out if anyone has. Alderman Peter Jones said it was sur- prising to find Colonel Evans so sensitive on certain points and so impervious on othere was a distinct natemont made! at'tiio meeting when the appointment took j place by a rev. gentleman, who h* saw p«-e- that day, that steps would be taken j to thwart this appointment. He presrmed ) that that gent!>»mai—ho preacVed them i tiuth and righteousness—when he made a st-iite iit V-at h- rcaPy meant it, Ann they •A o T to know whether it wps fit the Vo in:k? th >t state- ment, or whether, after mature co aidern- bo htM 13"1(e t.at h" write to I T" rr vvll for Col- onel Evans to be in this very mysterious mood, and to pretend that really he knew nothing about it. He knew certain things, but did not know other things. He knew what took place at a meeting at vmicii he was not present. Colonel Evans: I never said anything of the kind. Alderman Jones: You were not present at the last meeting, and yet you take exception to a letter read by the Clerk as to tho out- come of that meeting. I believe he knows something about the Home OHice, but he does not say anything about that (hear, hear.) That is one of the mysterious things I I don't understand. Major Lewis has said the question of age was never mentioned. He has been preaching that question to us from tinie to time. Major Lewis: I never preached the ques- tion of age except at that committee meet- ing, when it was quite proper for me to object to a man coming from outside the force who was over age. Alderman Peter Jones: It is always a dangerous thing to deny a thing before the charge is formulated. I make a specifio statement that Maior Lewis has said that if Superintendent Williams were appointed he would not be in this office only a few years, and that there would be a chance then for a person to succeed him. Was not the ques- tion of age discussed when they said that Superintendent Williams was nearly up to the age of 60, and would retire at 65? That question was talked over from time to time. Major Lewis (warmly): Nothing of the kind. Not a word did any of you say. That is an after-thought in. the concoction of that letter (derisive laughter). Alderman Jones: You know Major Lewis gets very excited, and he has demonstrated that on this occasion. I am afraid his mem- ory is not so good as it was many years ago. Major Lewis has made that statement that Mr. Williams was drawing on for sixty years, and would only hold the appointment for ? few years, and I think he even suggested who might succeed him. (To Major Lewis). I don't know whether you remember that or not. Major Lewis: I made a perfectly clear and legitimate statement, and what I said, and I can defy any one of you to say the reverse, was that none of you at either meeting raised the question of age or the question 01 finanoe. Colonel Evans: Hear, hear. Alderman Peter Jones said it did seem an anomalous position that the Home Secretary should take exception to a person who had had experience of the duties simply because he had not attained a position in that force beyond that of sergeant. He knew of sev- eral instances in which men occupying pos- itions of that kind had been appointed in urban districts, and had proved by far the the most successful men in those positions throughout the whole country. He charac- terised as absurd the exercise of this veto in this instance. If a person was a broken down gentleman with neither a military or naval calling he was appointed. He thought it was very interesting that they had had these protests with regard to the letter, but they could not get these protests with re- gard to the interview with the Home Secrc- tary of the correspondence which had taken place. He maintained that practical exper- ience in the discharge of the duties pertain- ing to the force was the best qualification they could have for the post.. On a pre- vioiis occasion, Sergeant Evans was objected to, although he had been in the force for a large number of years, and they had a gentle- man appointed from an adjoining force who had served about one-half his time. That showed the absurdity of the whole thing, and he felt that the Homo Office had treated them with scant courtesy in not giving them that information to which they were fairly entitled. They would like to have a word from Mr. Griffiths on this point (laughter). He hoped for the satisfaction of all the mem- bers, and certainly for his own reputation, which he held so dear, that Mr. Griffiths would kindly give that information. t Mr. Willis Bund having read the letters received from the Home Secretary, said he had simply followed what his predecessor did. Alderman" J. M. Howell said they were drifting from the point. Some of the mem- bers on the other side seemed to impugn the Clerk's conduct in writing the letter, but he considered the resolution passed at the previous meeting fully empowered Mr. Fryer to say all that he did say. Major Lewis said he did not see they were getting any forrader with this discussion. He proposed that they proceed to Mr. Bund's motion. Mr. D. C. Roberts: Let's know about this correspondence with the Home Office first of all. Major Lewis: I have no correspondence. Mr. Roberts: I don't say you have. Major Lewis: Then why ask me. Rev. J. M. Griffiths said he did not object to Mr. Fryer's letter. It was an exceeding- ly well-wntten one; he rather feared it was too cleverly written, and had defeated its own ends. But it seemed the Clerk had been instructed by some members to ask the Home Secretary to be good enough to send a copy of any correspondence which he might have had. The Home Secretary had refused to do that. Therefore, he was afraid it would be a breach of etiquette on the part of any gentleman to divulge the correspon- dence. He suggested if any gentleman had communicated with the Home Secretary'that that gentleman should write to the Home Secretary asking for permission to divulge the correspondence, and that it be laid on the table for the next meeting. Mr. D. C. Roberts: Will those gentlemen say publicly that they have had correspon- dence with the Home Secretary, and if they can get his- consent will present it to the next meeting. Rev. J. M. Griffiths: I am quite willing, and in the meantime,, if Mr. Roberts will be kind enough to become my guest I will show him privately any correspondence I may have had. Mr. Roberts: I want to see it publicly. This is a public matter. Alderman J. M. Howell said he would have been glad to second Mr. Griffiths' pro- posal to get out of tiiis quagmire, but tor one thing. There might have been inter- views. How were they to deal with those. Alderman C. M. Williams said he was sure that on reflection Colonel Evans and Major Lewis would not be able to charge Mr Fryer with having done anything unfair. He thought they knew him too well, and his high standard of conduct in the discharge of his official werk to cast any reflection Major Lewis: I don't mean to cast any re- flection on Mr. Fryer. He had simply stat- ed the case knowing the strong feeling which existed at the previous meeting, and as to stating Mr. Fryer would be biassed, he would be the last man. He had never seen the letter, or heard of it, but he had full con- fidence that Mr. Fryer would state the facts fairly. It was a well-known fact that a large number had given expression to the state- ments contained in the letter. Dr. Jenkyn Lewis said he would like to refer to what Colonel Evans and Major Le\\is had said. It seemed that they took exception to a certain item in the corrcs- pondence which was not revealed at the last meeting,and it was the question of age. This exception was highly interesting when view- ed side by side with what transpired in the first meeting of all. They then interviewed the six selected candidates, and had an op- portunity oi observing the persons and study- ing their qualifications, and according to the gospel preachel by Major Lewis they came there to discover the beet man. He under- stood from Major Lewis that when he left Tyglyn Aeron on the day of the last meeting he left with his mind open, his eyes open, and his ears open in search of the best man. But somehow or other he came across some contaminating influence. There was no bet- ter stickler for discipline that Major Lewis, and there was no better example of a dis- ciplined person, and like the disciplined warrior he was he left that contaminating area, he took his marching, and they came into the meeting, the whole twelve of them (laughter). Six persons appeared before the committee, two of them fime specimens of humanity, one from Liverpool and the other from Cardiff. What were they there for ? To be interviewed. They interviewed Ulem, and asked for an adjournment to discuss the qualifications. What took place? This was objected to. What part did they (the Quarter Sessions members) take? They stiich to their seat and did not come out at to d'<3f»uRs tho candidates. Pf»v. J. M. firiffiths: I think you are going off the mils. Co'oiel. r,7ans: A bottle of beer in the "RoviJ Oak. Mr D. Ovilaths: What has this to do with the qu^tion ? FV I, ■! continued to rpv tht whst he -nil n"1Hd waa that the boh;mo"r of the Q r tv-r |?oss;o-s moinbere pr«v«i^ *h«t th<nr mii-h S;?/' 'nn nj.V up ?b"r came to meeting. cviH tbo jiro- that vent through Major mird at tj. time when Ice had to fc!;roy. ";v<-r the, j best man for a party man. It was I Mne s not to reason why Mine is not to make reply, I Oh iny dear conscience—bye-bye. (Loud laughter). It was a thousand pities that the Rome Office should have this power in the second instance. Parliament never intended it in conferring this power on the Home Office, but intended It as a safeguard against jobbery and inefficiency. Mr. Willis Bund: (Hear, hear). An when upon recon- sideration, a committee of responsible per- sons reaffirm the appointment this power ought to be delegated to the Judge of Assize who could examine the evidence on both sides. It was only a matter of splitting hairs to talk about what transpired at the previous committee. Rev. D. Griffiths: I think we will have to dissolve Parliament and appoint a new Home Secretary to settle this question. Alderman Peter Jones: Happy suggestion. Mr. D. C. Roberts: These brilliant ideas are grand. Mr. Morgan Evans: If a new Home Sec- retary is appointed I hope he will be one who will not pay attention to letters sent him without tne authority of the committee (hear, hear). t Rev. T. R. Davies: I don't understand why you lay so much stress on this refusal more than the previous one. Dr. Lewis: He has treated us as if we were a tribe of Basutos. Major Lewis expressed a hope that they should now be allowed to proceed with the business on the agenda. Mr. Willis Bund then proposed that De- puty Chief Constable Williams be appointed Chief Constable. He said he did so with great pleasure, because they had all known Mr. Williams for a great many years, and they had known how well he had discharged his duties. He believed he was only advo- cating a principle which had always been advocated very strongly by gentlemen who were appointed by the County Council on this body, that promotion should come from the force, and that they should not go outside and block promotion. A great deal had been said about age, and, consequently, if they went outside the force they would have to appoint a comparatively young man. From their own force they could appoint any per- son of any age, and when a man had served the best of his time in the force, and was still vigorous and able to give good service, if they promoted him he would be able to discharge the duties well. If after serving them a reasonable time he retired then he thought they would all say he deserved the pension which he had earned. Mr. Williams had been 21 years in the force, and had dis- charged his duties admirably, and, he believ- ed he would discharge the duties of Chief Constable in a most efficient manner. Colonel Davies Evans, in seconding, said he intended voting for Mr. Williams for the simple reason that he had served the county faithfully and well for 21 years, and he con- sidered it would bo a gross injustice to pass him over and promote anybody over his head. Alderman Peter Jones said on a previous occasion he voted for Inspector Williams, of Liverpool, and he was gratified to find that the course he then took recommended itself to several gentlemen present that day. If he correctly remembered, at the last meet- ing Major Lewis was very favourably im- pressed by that gentleman, and thought he would be an excellent man if appointed, and by far the best man. He felt sure that that manliness that had always characteri.-jd him, he would carry into effect what was said on that occasion, because they always felt in regard to the Major,, that when he said a thing he meant it, and when he meant it would carry it out. Major Lewis: I suggested two courses on I that occasion. Alderman J&nes said Inspector Williams joined the Liverpool police force when 21 years of age. He had been a police con- stable, afterwards a sergeant, and subse- quently, an inspector, and before being ap- pointed inspector passect"searching examin- ation. He believed the record of his testi- monials pointed him out as pre-eminently the man for them to appoint. Mr. David Davies: Is he still an applicant ? Mr. D. C. 'Roberts: I can answer that. He will accept the appointment if elected. Alderman Jones said it would be to the advantage of the force to have Inspector Williams' services, because he had practical knowledge of the routine work from the lowest rung up to the position of inspector, which he now occupied. Dr. Jenkyn Lewis said he had great plea- sure in seconding. When Inspector Wil- liams appeared before the committee he was very favourably impressed by him, and like Mr. Jones he voted according to the dict- ates of his conscience. In discussing the merits of Inspector Williams, he found that his friend Mr. David Davies, Velindre. was also favourably impressed, and like a true Christian voted according to the dictates of his conscience. He hoped Mr. Davies would support this time the candidature of Inspec- tor Williams. Mr. David Davies said he quite endorsed every word Dr. Lewis had said. He did on the last occasion vote for Inspector Wil- liams. of Liverpool, with Mr. Peter Jones, and Dr. Lewis. He wished to know whet- her that man was an applicant now or not. Alderman Peter Jones: Yes. Mr. Davies: We have nothing to show. Dr. Lewis: Have you anything to show that Mr. Williams is? Mr. Davies: I take it, being down on the agenda, Mr. Bund has ascertained that. Alderman Peter Jones: He will accept the office if you appoint him. Mr. D. C. Roberts: Yes, I know that as a fact. Colonel Evans: Can we have the corres- pondence. Dr. Powell suggested that both sides should confer for a few minutes with a view to coming to a unanimous understanding. Mr. David Davies: With that end in view I propose that three members from each side should consider it. Mr. D. C. Roberts: Confer with the Home Office. Try and persuade them. The Rev. J. M. Griffiths said Dr. Lewis changed his opinion at the previous meeting He said at' first he was in favour of an out- sider. Dr. Lewis: I never used those words. Rev. J. M. Griffiths: But when he found the feeling of the majority in favour of a man from the force he changed his mind. Alderman Peter Jones: No, he was in a minority, and could not help himself. Alderman J. M. Howell, speaking on the financial point, said there was one thing which was worthy of their notice. If Super- intendent Williams was appointeu, there would be a vacancy in the inspectorship of weights and measures, which would mean the appointment of an expensive officer from outside- Rev. J. M. Griffiths thought it would be a fearful thing to punish a man because he held a certain post and had saved the county hundreds and hundreds of pounds. Mr Bund: I know of a Chief Constable who is an inspector of weights and measures. He receives a salary for it, and the appoint- ment has been confirmed by the Home Office. Alderman Jones: Without any deputy. Mr. Bund: There are inspectors under him, but he acts as chief inspector of weights and measures. The point Mr. J. M. Howell has mentioned has nothing to do with it. Alderman J. M. Howell: I daresay with yourselves at the helm at the Home Office you can do whatever you like. Dr. Lewis, replying to the Rev. J. M. Griffiths, said in the first place he voted for the man he thought was the best man. When I saw the other side introduce politics, I in- troduce politics, as well, and beat your man. On a division 12 voted for the amendment and 12 for the motion, and on the casting vote of the Chairman, Inspector Edward Williams, of Liverpool was appointed chief constable. Mr. Peter Jones: As a formal matter I now propose as a substantive motion that Inspector Edward Williams be appointed chief coustable. Captain William Davies seconded. On a division 12 voted for the motion and 10 against, two members refraining from voting. The motion was then formally de- clared carried. Before the meeting eaded, the Rev. Dan- iel Griffiths said he wished to refer to what look placo at the previous meeting. Accord- ing to the reports tn the local papers, Mr. C. M. Williams put words in his mouth which he never used, and which were a reflection 011 the honour of the Home Secretary as well as his own. The rev. gentleman had got the cuttings from the local papers, and created much amrtBemont by his attempts to find hie glasBea in order to read them. He was also subjected to a. fusilade, of bantering re- marks from the evidence and, eventually, failing to find Fils glasses, had to give up tho attempt aa ft failure.

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