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- MISS DOUGLAS PMMT IN THE…

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MISS DOUGLAS PMMT IN THE WITNESS BOX, (Continued from page H.) Sir Godfrey that the-re- had been immor- ality, but she had mentioned the tumours about. the. motor drives. MAJOR BAIRD'S DENIAL. It was true that she had said that when she went to see Major Baird be appeared to be bewildered, and told her he under- stood that she bad retired on account of ill- health. Counsel: Was he engaged in the con- spiracy against you?—Certainly not. If he says there is not a word of truth in that statement ;—That wae what he told me. I am informed that he said nothing of the sort?—Witness persisted in her alle- gation. Have you told their Lordships every- thing about your supersession and the in- cidents that led up to it?—(A pauec) I cannot answer that question, because some- tiling might occur to my mind that I might desire their Lordships should hear. Mr Curtis Bennett, K.Q., for Colonel Janson, said he would not cross-examine, a& all reference to his client had been matters of rumour. DIFFICULTIES EXPLAINED. Cross-examined by Sir Charles Russell, on behalf of General Brancker, Miss Douglas Pennant gave her account of the various interviews she had had with Gen- eral Brancker. Her- statements differed in many particulars with counsel's instruc- tions as to what had passed. The first in- terview was in General Paine's room. General Paine having" left. She had told General Brancker about her difficulties, but it was not correct that she said it was about troubles in reference to getting offi- cers. That was in a later conversation. She agreed that she had gone to General Brancker with Colonel Powell, and that the latter had heard Mrs Kitto's account of what had occurred. General Brancker listened to what was said, and remarked that if that was eo it was a matter for a court-martial. He sent for General War- ren. The Chairman: "If that is so"—if what is so ? Counsel: The story as totd by Colonel Powell relating- to the interview he had had with Mrs Kitto." Witness continued that tJeneral Wairen came in response to General Brancker's call, and when the matter was put before him he seemed rather doubtful about a court-martial.. Counsel: And that a court-martial should not be lightly entered upon ? Certainly. iWitness continued that General Brancker had intrigued with Dame Katharine Furs?, who had used her influence against her. She was of opinion that Sir Auckland Geddes was determined that she should go, and that Mrs Beatty and Miss Andrew were parties to the intrigue. She was not eertaui about Sir Auckland Geddes. CROSS-EXAMINED FOR MRS i BEATTY. Mr Evans Jackson cross-examined witncds on behalf of Mrs Beatty. ■Witness said she had suggested that Mrs Jieatty was not honest. Do you adere to that?—She did not be have honestly in spreading reports against me. She did not- for a moment suggest that she had any knowledge that would jusii fy the word she had heard for the first time that day that Mrs Beatty was "im- modest. You say, however that she is not hon- est Tha.t he did not behave honestly in spreading reports about me that she knew were untrue, in saying that I was doing things that I was not doing, and had nev- er done, and was choosing people of the i lowest class for 'JB»e.Jf'orce, and so forth. These things were aj untrue. Asked, whether, untila week before her resignation, Mrs Beatty had no definite dv04"s, gr. I said Mrs ikaiiy all along had* had charge of the ptob?tiomu'y onicers. In !xíUÍlmà1iion, 'witness said it was Mme time <n?u!y that she first heard ru tnours that something was wrong about the morals at the Hurst Park Camp, which was a training ^cc'ntre for women transport drivers.. The women when off duty were supposed to be under the command of an hostel administrator.. Mr J. A. Hawke, K.C., read a eommuni- cation in" which the,officer commanding at Hunt Park agked for twenty-four hours' notice of further visits after witness had first gone there, but the officer was told by the Air Ministry thsrt he had no right to lay down such a condition. This officer yvas involved in the charges made. Air Hawke, in his counter-examination of JMiss Douglas Pennant asked her for a defi- nition of "direct access." It means bein^ ablo to see a senior officer every day with- out prevention," was the reply. "I did not wish io see any junior officer. I .wanted to see Sir Godfrey Paine." When Miss Leonard interrupted the pro- ceedmgs ahe eek-ed if Miss Doluglas Pen- nant in her statement on the previous day regarding live ladies meant that to be taken collectively I did not feel I could honestly recom- mend you for the appointment you were given," replied AJiss Douglas Pennant. You do not allege that the appointment was ottered me because of my personal friendship with Colonel Bersey lather than that 1 had the ability to do the work? "1 am sure Col. Bersey thought you would do what was the best for the Ser- vice. WEDNESDAY S SITTING. SIR GODFREY PAINE'S EVIDENCE. "DESIRED HIGHLY PAID POSTS NOT GRANTED." Sir Godfrey Paine gave evidence on Wednesday. In reply to Mr Bevan (counsel for Miss Pennant), he said tnat before April 1st, 1918. he was Fifth Sea Lord at the Admiralty, and was then ap- pointed Master General of Personnel in the W.R.A.F. On April 22nd he wrote to Miss Douglas Pennant .suggesting her appointment as Commandant, having received from Violet Markham a letter setting forth the qualifi- cations of various ladies, and he told the Secretary of State that Miss Douglas Pen- nant appeared best to fulfil the require- ments. Subsequently Miss Douglas Pen- nant who had a month's "look round," wrote that ethe could not accept the posi- tion There were differences, she said, with M 3, with which it was intended sfoe should co-operate. He told-her he would Me ilis Deputy and Colonel Beree-y and make her status clear to them. "1 do not think Miss Douglas Pennant's appointment ever appeared in the Gazette, 4iaid Sir Godfrey. "Commissions were not granted to women, and I do not think Elie had a formal appointment, but I am quite certain that she was generally reicognised as having been appointed commandant of the W.R.A.F. and the secretary published a notice to that effect." The Chairman (Lord Wrenbury): Hiat -was inaccurate. Who gave her the ap- pointment? Sir Godfrey Paine: I did. I brought her flame before the Air Council, and she was itenerally approved as commandant. AGSS DOUGLAS PENNANT'S DIFFI. CULTIES. Sir Godfrey agreed that the resignation bf Mrs Beatty and two other women ofli- aere followed the refusal of Miss Douglas I Pennant to appoi, nt fire I Penna.nt postw. Mr Bevan: Had that refusal of Miss Douglas Pennant your approval or not? Sir Godfrey: Quite. She oame 6) me with a list of five ladies for aPPointm-U to various-, poete,.in. the W.B.A.F., and she [ told me tihat they were notjn her opinion sufficiently experienced fo be Appointed to the higher grades for which; they had been nomkiaJted, but tihat she thought. they would be very' Cipable officers' in time. I told her to offer them lower grade ap- pointments ;with a new to their rapid pro- motion, provided they were :sufficiently competent in a short time. I believe she offered tthem these appointments, and the whole five refused. The witness said Damo Katharine Fursc eompfkuned that Miss Douglas Pennant had been the means of She resignation of one of her most valuable officers, and had givesi a high position to one of the women dhe (Dame Furso) had turned- down. So long as he was Master General ho believed Miss Douglas Pennant did her best to co- operate with Dame Furse. Accommoda- tion was one of their greatest difficulties, and Mi,53 Douglas Pennant tackled it to the best of her ability. At no time did 'lie have any reason to alter his opinion that she was in every way fitted for her position. I WHY COL'BERSEY WAS RELIEVED. I Questioned about the letter of Mr Ro- berts (then Minister of Labour) to Lord Wear, tJ.1o witness said that rather than concluding that Miss Douglas Pennant was to blame for the state of things then com- pLained of, he thought siie was doing every- thing sh e could to set things right. Replying to tine letter relieving Colonel iBeitsey of his appointment as head of M 3, Sir Godfrey said "I had come to the conclusion that the org,anisatioll was not running particularly smoothly, and we were not getting on as fast "witth the running of the W.R.A.F. as ho hoped. I saw Lord Weir and told him I proposed to relieve Colonel Bersey and try it with another officer. We were not getting on fast enough. It was difficult to Bay why. Colonel Bersey fiiad worked very hard indeed. I know he worked very long hours, but we wore not getting re- sults. "I was very keen, and so wane Lord Weir, about getting this womenf organisation going. It was life or death to us. We tJlad not got the men; we were short all over the country, and I came to the con- clusion that we might speed things up and improve the whole tihing with another man in CoJ<llncl1 Bersey's place. As I say in the letter, I was not prepared to experi- ment with another commandant. If no change had taken place and tilings had not improved, they-might both have gone, and we might Slave had to toy some other organisation altogether." Miss Douglas Pennant, the witness con- tinued, told him that Hur&t Park was in an unsatisfactory state. She did not men- tion the word "immorality." t'ne Chairman Did ehe say anything to convey to you that that was the state of things?—I liiad a suspicion. If she had conveyed to you trwre was gross immorality at Hurst Park you would have remembered it?—Yes. Counsel: If the officer commanding at Hurst Park had been granting nighi passes to the W.R.A.F. women, would that have been an easy matter for Miss Douglas Pen- nant to have investigated?—If she couldn't ehe might have reported to me, and I would have 'had it investigated in about five minutee. Would it have been easy or difficult for Miss Douglas Pennant to find out for her- self ?-Very difficult. She had no juris- diction over the O.C. at Hurst Park. Sir Godfrey Paine, cross-examined by Mr Rigby Swi;ft (for the Air Ministry), said ha received no complaints during the time he remained there after the super- session of Colonel Rorsey that the new re- -gime W3 not wrtrkinxr a,ti",fnd.{wilv I I I RESIGNATIONS WITH A PURPOSE. Did you ever see ttic slightest sign of any intrigue while you were there?- iTes; the resignation, first of all, of fin ladies who were in subordinate po^te on the clear understanding that if they did tiJleir work sdtisiaciXM iiy iftey won in 1"( prodiiot-ea io higher post*. They refused to accept these conditions, and' they went m bloc, the five af them. To put it vulgarly, they tried to put Misa |Dougias Pennant "in the cart." Is that the only evidence of intrigue?— No. A few days afterwards three of the senior staff officers in her office resigned together. Two resignations were accepted and the ethers were not. These three womeni, in my opinion, resigned in the hope t,tat Miss Douglas Pennant would go, and that they would be reinstated. The Chairman: Why do you think I!O?- Because they gave me no satisfactory rea- son for going. Counsel: Do you believe that General Livingstone was in any way a party to im- morality in the camps or permitting it?— Certainly not. Sir Godfrey added that it was never reported to him that there was immorality in any camp. He heard ru- mours that things were unsatisfactory. Mr Swift: Do you believe the story that the Air Ministry reifused to inquire into these things because they were afraid of scandals being reA-ealed ?—No. "What do you say about Dame Kath- arine Furse's temper?" inquired counL Sir Godfrey smiled but did not reply- Lord Denbigh: 1171iy did they want to get rid of her ? Sir Godfrey: I suppose because they did not like her. Five of them wanted to get rid of her because tfiev did not get highly paid posts which they hoped to get. YESTERDAYS PROCEEDINGS. ( I LADY RHONDDA'S CABLE FROM AMERICA. I THE COLONEL AND MISS "A." I During the inquiry, yesterday, a cable was road from Lady Rhondda from Ameri- ca, who stated that she wae anxious to appear before the committee to .answer such questions as might be put to her. Lord Wrenbury said the coi-nmitiee would certainly give Lady Rhondda leave to enter an appearance- Even if file in- quiry finished before her arrival from America, they would hear her. Further evidence was given on questions of immorality in the W.R.A.F. camps, some piquancy being introduced by refer- ences to persons called Miss "A" and Miss "B" and their association with the C.O. of the camp. -Air,flavii-ooti, who went to the W.R.A.F. t headquarters at the Cecil Hotel to aesist in the clerical work, recalled, said there was no truth in the suggestion that Miss Douglas Pennant was rude on the tele- phone, or that s he was not a fit person to control a staff. Miss Andrew generally answered the telephone in Miss Douglas Pennant s absence. -C.oui-we,J-, Was Miss Andrew consistently polite on the 'phono?—Certainly not. She was hasty and very abrupt (laughter). I had c-oru-taut complaints from downstairs, abuut Miss Andrew being rude. I COLONEL BERSEY FED UP. I Captain James Patrick Cherry, of tne 3rd Durham Light Infantry, said he was appointed on the staff at the Cecil Hotel to attend to-the equipping of-the women's hostels. Colonel Bersey, witness eaid, did not seem to be getting on with the hostel scheme very quickly, though he; ex- pressed himself ae being very keen about it. When Colonel Bersey WAS leaving for another office he said to witness: "It won't be long before I am back again. I am fel up with her (Miss Douglas Pennant) —(laughter)—and I dont think it will be very long before she goes." When Miss Douglas Pennant was leaving; Colonel Powell said: "If I had been here two or three months earlier tpiIJ thing- would not have happened. Counsel: What was your opiniowof Miss DI"ou W Peni-iaiit?-I think she was a great hrauer. W." sbo eve-r rtrfe to you?eve.r. Lord jMetfruen: Was she "nervy?"— Oh, dear no, not in the least (laughter). Alm Evelyn B. Foabrooke, a Canadian, said Miss Douglas Pennant treated her rather kindly, and ^witness saw no evi- denoe of rudenees either on the telephone or in the office on her part. Captain Norman Hodges, of the Air Ministry, referred to aii occasion when he said; Mrs Beatty spoke disrespectfully of Miss Douglas Pennant to mother person. Subordinate officers wre pretext at the time. Mr Buchanan: In your opinion was such conduct highly subversive of all discipline? —Yes, it was. Witness said that he had always found Miss Douglas Pennant tactful and easy to work with. Mrs Atkins, who was appointed, deputy assistant commandant in the W.R.A.F.'s, said she and other officers gave Mi? Douglas Pennant a present as a token of loyalty and appreciation of her sympathetic oonaderation, Miss O'Sullivan, who was appointed clothing oontroller in the W.R.A.F.'s in June, 1918. wa-s next called. LADY RHONDDA'S WISH. Upon the Committee resuming after the luncheon interval, Mr Barrington Ward asked leave to make an application on be- half of Lady Rhondda, who, he said, was in America. She left upon private busi- ness on August 14th, said counsel, and .she was exceedingly anxious to appear be- fore the committee if possible, to answer suoh questions as might be put to her. Counsel read a cable from Lady Rhon- dda., as fodlows: "October 3rd, Van- couver.—Anxious to return for inquiry. Would it be possible to .postpone my evi- dence till end? Berths already taken. Boat sailing N'ovember 5th, but will try to coma by boat sailing about October 26th, if necessary. Very difficult to come earlier than tha.t, as object of visit stultified if leave before fixing business Vancouver. Please cable freely." Other advices, said counsel, had been re- ceived from Lady. Rhondda, who had booked a passage upon a steamer leaving on October 25th. He asked if it vrould be possible, assuming the inquiry ended be- fore she arrived in England, to take Lady Rhondda'i evidence before making their report. — Lord Wrenbury We give her leave cer- tainly, to enter an appcaramce. When can she be here?; • Counsel: The a week, so she should a-dave ,bortaiiily by the first week in November. Mr Hawke, K.C. (for Miss Douglas Pennant.. in reply to the Chairman, said that- he hoped to finish his case to-day. Ml-, Rigby Swift, K.C. (for the Air Ministry)' said he had not the remotest idea how long the i,,nittee- would think it necessary to be oVmpied in hearing the evidence he proposed to-call.- "I propose to oall everybody who has been men- tioned," oouijsel added, who is not re- presented by somebody else, to come here and tell usthe whole history of the matter so far as they are concerned. Lord Wrenbury: That will take a sub- stantial time. Counsel: I am afraid so. Lord Wrenbury said th ere was a reason- able anticipation that Lady Rhondda would arrive before the inquiry finished, but if she were going to arrive a day or two after, they would hear her. Mr Ward said he wanted to have it stated publicly that Lady Rhondda was anxious to come and answer any question that might be asked her. Miss O'Sullivan resuming her evidence, said she wrote letters to Miss Douglas Pennant, but received no answer, a.nd ascertained that the letters had not readied Miss Douglas Pennant. QUESTION OF IMMORALITY. Mr Turobull was the next witness called; and Mr Rigby Swift said they admitted one case, on August 30th, of reported im- morality at Hurst Park. Mr Hawke: My friends and 1 are worlds apart about this; I-say certain things hap- pened at Hurst Park, and that they were things in which the Commanding Officer was personally involved. Counsel, continuing, said what he was seeking to prove waS that the ottacer was deaJt with by General Brancker, and, was removed for a short period to a country camp' from Hurst Pajk, and then, by General B?-ancker s approval, 17 not his act, brought back to a command in London, whefo the same thin'g continued. Lord" Wienbiiry, the chairman, said that up t-o now he had been endcavourjng to preserve anonymity about the whole tning, and he hoped that, would be done ttiH- ugn- OUt:* • Mr Hawke said part of his case was that one of the determínmgaclors m the dis- missal of Miss Douglas Pennant was that the wasbrjngjng into the public notice matters which General Brancker, for rea- sons of his own, owing to his connection with and friendship with the CommamTing Officer in the particular camp wanted not to be brougiit. into notice. Mr Curtis Benneit said he wished to make it quite clear .that his client was prepared to deal with any evidence that was given fgajnst him if the Committee thought it relevant. Mr Harold Morns stated that he made no application that those matters should not be dealt with, but he thought Clie al- legations were eiitirt-ly irrelevant. The Committee would see from Miss Douglas Pennant's case the scanty way in which serious charges were set oiit.. "My client applied for particulars of them as to date and place," said counsel, "both these things were refileeci.. The Chairman said that :f none of the parties applied that these matters should not be gone into he would have tfieni trieil out. Mr Curtis Bennett: Will your lordshio five a finding upon jtT The Chairman: Certainly. If we hear it at all we shall hear it. out. MISS" B" Al-Jn THE, C.O. Mr I urnbull, who said he was an N.C.O. Oork at Hurst Park. then continued his evidence, it being decided that tne persons mentioned dioutd be referred to as "A" and B. Witness spoke of Miss HB," one of the offie,c-n, being frequently with the Com- manding Officer of the Camp. Lord Wrenbury asked counsel as to what he proposed to prove, and Mr Jtlawke re- plied that he wanted to prove that the colonel interfered with Miss Douglas Pen- nant in her duties. "We allege {hat two officers, 'A' and '15,- were on friendly lertus with the colonel, "counsel added, re- marking that.he desired to treat- the mat- ter as limited as he could. Wtncss saJS that the colonel and Miss "B" were seen a g-reat deal together. A" and "B," Witness said, were the proper persons to grant night passes for the girls to go out., and passes were granted frequently by both women. He re- ported to his superior. The witness spoke next of seeing tihe colonel and one of iiic women together on horseback. The Committee adjourned until to-day.

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