The Welshman

UNITED COUNTIES CHAMBER OF AGRICULTURE. The quarterly meeting was held at Carmarthen on Wednesday, and there was a good attendance of the leading farmers of the district. Lord Cawdor had pro- mised to preside, but as he was quite unable to attend, Mr J. Buckley, Penyfai, was voted to the chair. The subject for discussion was County Financial Boards," and it was introduced by Mr J. B. Bowen, of Llwyn- gwair, late M.P. for the county of Pembroke. Mr J. B. Bowen, who was very cordially received, said-I have had very much pleasure in accepting the invitation of the Courcil of this Chamber-(bear, hear) -conveyed to me in a very kind letter by my friend Mr Howell Davies, our worthy secretary-to introduce the subject for discussion this evening, not because I have any pretensions to a mastery of the subject, not because I have any hope, even by accident, of throwing the faintest light upon it, but for the simple reason that, as one of the original members of this Chamber, and as one who takes a very great interest in its prosperity (cheers) I have considered it my duty to do all that lies within my humble scope, to assist its deliberations—and I trust that, in this particular my example will be followed by all my brother members. The question we have before us to-day is the establishment of County Financial Boards, institutions which are intended to place within the control of the ratepayers the expenditure and the general administration of all moneys raised for county purposes. You are all aware that last year, a Bill was brought into the House of Commons by Mr Wylde, the late member for Bodmin. It was founded on the report of a select committee, it met with a great deal of criti- cism, and was finally rejected. But its principle was adopted (hear, hear), and I am not going to trouble you with any observations at all on its provisions. I mention this to show that the question is not new to Parliament, although, I believe, it is a novel feature in a speech from the Throne. In the most gracious speech of her Majesty, at the opening of the present session, we find the following passage A measure will be intro- duced for applying the principle of representation to the control ot tne county rate, by the establishment of Financial Boards for counties." So you see this par- ticular rate is fairly before the country. And I really think it is a very good thing that, periodically, our rates and taxes should be brought into prominent notice, or, if I may be allowed the expression, over- hauled, (laughter), because if nothing else be certain, still, one thing is certain—that we are a very heavily taxed people. (Cheers). But, gentlemen, we ought not to complain very much, because, after all, it is the national price we pay for our civilisation, our security, our comfort, and, I may say, our leadership in the world. (Cheers). The various ways in which we con- tribute towards this mutual prosperity are very inter- esting subjects for consideration, and aro full of variety, from the income Tax which reminds us of our wealth and dignity, down to the five shilling license every year. 3u?mo???r?v?man;s i.ecoUec?o? hislt^!|»' q,?o 1. e ?r,11, UJQ -?6 t.:1Jeer ffi have the Highway rate, which to my mind is the most pleasant of all rates, By its aid we find all our country roads very much improved, and specially under Lord Emlyn's Act. Generally as we find our roads get better, we find our rates get lighter; in fact I do not know anything so grateful for money expended on it, as a road. Then, turning from the brighter side of taxa- tion, we have the poor rate, reminding us of the misery of the world—the pauperism that stalks abroad the wretchedness that hides at home. But here, in connection with the poor rate, we come across the county rate. For some reason or other—convenience of collection I suppose, the poor-rate and the county rate are collected together; and to my certain know- Sedge, in the mind of many an honest farmer, the county rate is an impalpable thing (hear, her.) He pays it, but he does not know how he has not the slightest idea how much it is. As to the county rate, we must ask these questions: What are its Uses: How is it managed? It is in considering and answering these questions that we come to the real point before UE:, namely, whether it is expedient that the administra- tion of the county finances should be transferred from the Court of Quarter Sessions to boards elected by the ratepayers. The county rate is, as its name implies, the general fund to which all parishes are liable, and it is applicable for many purposes. > I do not wish to detain you, but you will excuse me mentioning these purposes. Repairing county bridges, coroners' fees, removing prisoners for transportation, carrying prisoners to gaol, building and repairing gaols and houses of correction, shire halls, salaries of chaplain and officers and setting prisoners to work, expenses relating to improvements to court-house, providing County Lunatic Asylum, fees of gaoler and other officers, burying dead bodies cast on shore, expenses of prosecutions, treasurers' salary, prosecuting vagrants, procuring copies of the imperial standard of weights and measures, paying one moiety of the charge of prosecuting masters for ill-treating parish apprentices. I am not sure whether these are all the uses to which it is applied but they are enough to show that, as there are so many ways of spending the money, of course there must be a way of economising it (cheers.) It is right I should tell you that, although this rate is applicable to so many purposes, and has such a terrible aspect, that the rate in the pound is small. Through the kindness of the Clerk of the Peace, I have in my possession the poundage of the county and police rates for the county of Pembroke for 1868 and I would observe, in speaking of the county rate, I am speaking also of the police rate, as they are almost identical. They are.precisely in the same predicament, as far as our discussion is concerned to-day. In 1868, in the county of Pembroke, the total poundage of the county rate was 3jd and of the police rate, 2d. I have also on my paper an abstract of account supplied to Parliament, for 1867, which was sent to me by Mr Scourfie d, the member for the county of Pembroke, who takes a very warm interest in this, as he does in everything else affecting the welfare of the ratepayers (cheers). But before I go into these figures, which I shall do as shortly as possible I must take the opportunity of mentioning a letter which I received just before I left home, from our noble president. Lord Cawdor writes I regret that I cannot attend, partly from a desire to pay you the compliment of doing so, and partly to hear and take part in the discussion. I do not know how the Boards are proposed to be formed, or elected, but I should very glad to let in the ratepayers to a voice in the matter, (cheers), though I think they will be disappointed if they fancy they will be able to effect any great reduction in the rates (Hear, hear.) No one can lament more than I do, the absence ot the noble lord, who by- his long experience in political matters, from his clear judgment and shrewd percep- tion, would have helped us very much in this discussion (cheers). The paper I have before me is an abstract of account for the year ending Michaelmas, 1867, ordered by the House to be printed, April, 1868. I may say it is the very last, no other has been printed since. We are only interested, to-day, in the three counties, the accounts of which I shall read. The first column shows the total assessment for the county rate. In the county of Cardigan the total assessment was £ 204,889 Carmarthen, Y,327,630 Pembroke, £ 306,165. So that taking this as a distinctive linking of the counties together, we find that Cardigan stands first, Pembroke second, and Carmarthen third although I ought to say that the assessment of the county of Pembroke is about to be raised £ 63,000 which will bring us up still more. The next column shows the total poundage ot rate during the year; and Cardigan is 7ad Carmarthen, 6id; and Pembroke, 4d. Cardigan stands very hIgh; I do not know if there is any Cardiganshire gentleman present to-day who can explain this. It stands first in the list; but Brecon and Glamorgan are before it, the former with 8|d, and the latter with 7Jd. The total amount of debt—comes next, for counties copy their great mother, the State, and every county in or near Wales, excepting Anglesea, and Gloucester rejoices in the possession of a very nice little debt (laughter.) Debt is one of those abstract things which, while it is very unpleasant is, at the same time, a sort of voucher of respectability (laughter and cheers.) like the dirt on a well-thumbed note, it spoils the note as a picture, but shows it is a good note (cheers.) The total debt of the county of Cardigan, was £ 8,050; Carmarthen, £1,8aO; Pembroke, I am sorry to say, has £ 14,180. I leave out the odd shillings. Now, we come to receipts. There are certain balances in hand Cardigan had X289 6s 5d Carmarthen, 1619 15s 8d and Pembroke, S-1420 18s 01d. The next column, showing receipts is most important of all; it shows the balances by county and police rates. Cardigan is £ 7085 Us ö}d; Carmarthen, S7193 17s 9d; Pembroke, £ 5654 8s 3d. Now you see that Car- digan, thofigh a very much smaller county, yet by means of that 7 d rate, it can raise a sum very nearly as large as Carmarthen, which is so very much larger in the value of its assessment. Then, there are other receipts in the shape of allowances from the Treasury for prosecution of prisoners, and towards expenses of police. So far as the police is concerned, it is a credit to any county to receive tho full allowance from the Treasury, because it shows that, the police force is in a state of efficiency. Then come receipts on account of lunatics. Pembrokeshire is £17 2s 3d, and it is the only one in the return. Now we come to another thing which, I must confess, is perhaps one of the items which may give rise to a little discontent. There is a column here called other receipts," and in Cardigan these amounted to £ 135 4s, in Carmarthen £ 2043 14s, and in Pembroke X485 5s 7d. I have not the slightest notion what other receipts means. In Carmarthen- shire it is a very full item. The next column is total receipts," and in Cardigan they amount to £ 8348 7s 6 £ d, in Carmarthen £ 11502 10s lOd, and in Pembroke £ 9935 8s 113d. Then we come to the disbursements. The rural police is first, and in Cardigan the sum is X2592 3s lid, Carmarthen E.3985 9s 2d, and Pembroke £ 3266 3s Sd; all, you will observe, very large sums, indeed, in fact, almost the largest sums paid under any head. The items for conveyance of prisoners are- Cardigan, jE78 3s ld; Carmarthen, L49 6s 4d; Pem- broke, £ 54 2s IoLd. The gaol and hou-e of correction: for diet, Cardigan 1272 3s 9d, Carmarthen L202 14s lOd, Pembroke, £ 269 10s 9d. Cardigan gives a more liberal diet, I suppose, or perhaps it may have more prisoners. It exceeds the other two counties considerably in diet. Clothing, also for gaols, See., cost Cardigan JE45 19s 5d, Carmarthen, E30 14s 5d, 1'130) broke, £:37 17s; salaries, Cardigan, £ 295 16s, Carmarthen, X590 15s 6d, Pem- broke, X531 15s 4d. Incidental expenses for gaols, &c., is another of those mysterious columns I do not pre- tend to understand, but in Cardigan they amounted to X438 6s 3d, Carmarthen, 1178 17s 8d, Pembroke, 1400 17s 3d. I hope there are some gentlemen here who will presently take part in the discussion, and enlighten us as to these "incidental expenses" and also "other receipts" (cheers). The total disbursements for gaol and house of correction was in Cardigan, £1052 5s 5d, Carmarthen, £ 1003 2s 5d, Pembroke, £ 1240 Os 4d. Prosecutions of prisoners at Quarter Sessions, Cardigan, S116 12s Id, Carmarthen, £ 220 16s 5d, Pembroke, £ 247 Is lOd. Under criminal Justice Act, Cardigan, C14 10s 6d, Carmarthen, zC22 13s 2d, Pembroke, £ 66s 9s 4d. They are all small sums. Under Juvenile Offenders Act, Cardigan, 14, 58 7d, Carmarthen, £ 2 8s lOd, Pembroke, 19 9s 10d. Total prosecutions, Cardigan, R,307 11s lid, Carmarthen, £ 352 4s lOd, Pembroke, Y,348 2s 4d. Con- veyance of transports, Cardigan, X,11 Os lid, Carmarthen, jE7 88 ld, Pembroke, £ lt»s 10s 8d. Shire-halls, &c., Car- digan, £ 322 9s Id, Carmarthen, X350 13s 3d, Pembroke, S50 15s 8id. The county of Carmarthen has expended a larger sum than any county in Wales on its Shire- hall in 1867. I believe you hæve been making expen- sive alterations, and I have no doubt the money has been well laid out. The county of Cardigan has also spent a large sum. There is a deficiency in the returns as to the expenses of lunatic asylum, Cardigan being the only return, and that being j6405. In fact, "inci- dental payment" on the part of Cardigan is, with regard to lunatic asylums, the only entry in this return for the three counties. Maintenance of pauper lunatics, Car- digan, £84 4s 8d Carmarthen, £45 18s 1 Id Pembroke- shire, f73 os 4d. Militia storehouses, Cardigan, X738 9s lOd Carmarthen, £ 44 10s lOd Pembrokeshire, £ 83 19s. That item accounts, I expect, for the large poundage in the county of Cardigan. I believe they have erected a fine new building. The next item is county bridges, Cardigan, 1498 18s 6d; Carmarthen, L957 12s 8d; Pembrokeshire, 1390 Is 4d. The county of Carmarthen stands third in Wales in 1867, in the matter of bridges. But I always think that money is well laid out on bridges, and I should like to see a few more of them in the county of Carmarthen (cheers.) Now, we come to the Clerk of the Peace's salary, which is, in Cardigan, £ 300; Carmarthen, £ 350; Pembroke, £ 218 6s. Treasurer's salaries, Cardigan, £.5.5; Car- marthen, R50 Pembroke, j673 10s. Coroners, Car- digan, £ 118 8s; Carmarthen, £243 3s; Pembroke, B149 15 6d. Inspectors of weights and measures, Cardigan, -64 9s 3d Carmarthen, 1123 19s lid Pembroke, £ 7 15s 2d. In Carmarthen this item is very high there are very few counties in England, and not one in Wales, anything like so high. The next item is interest and principal of debt," and here, I am very glad to say that my own county, Pembrokeshire, has rid lÔrÕl.l aem: Cardigan, E147 5s 2d Carmarthen, Mo8 2s 7d Pembrokeshire, £ 974 13 6d. Repayment of debt. We are also first there in Pembrokeshire: Cardigan, Y,350 Carmarthen, e466 13s 4d; Pem- brokeshiref £ 790. And then comes another of the mysterious columns to which I referred just now- incidental expenses, Cardigan, £ 1019 0 9d; Car- marthen, £ 1000 88 5d Pembrokeshire, £ 695 10s Îd. The total debt is-Cardigan, L3615 16s 3d; Carmar- then £ 4840 9s 8d Pembrokeshire, X3456 16s .5d. The total disbursements for Cardigan is £ 8384 10s 7d Carmarthen, L10588 13s 9d (cries of "Oh"); Pem- broke, £ 843? 12s °!1d. At Michaelmas, 1867, Cardi- gan had no balance in hand, Carmarthen had 1973 17s ld, whilst we lucky fellows in Pembrokeshire bad £1502 16s lid (laughter.) And now, gentle- men I come to the third stage of the question, and I ask—What is the county rate r How is it managed ? What becomes of the money ? I mean to say, what are its uses ? With regard to the question, how is the rate raised It is raised on the basi,j am quotmg now, not verbatim, but in sub- stance, from the 15th and Kith Vic., c. 81, the Act which gives the right to raise the rate—" It is raised on a basis prepared by the County Rate Committee, that is a committee appointed by Quarter Sessions, according to the full an fair annual value of the property rate- able to the relief of the poor, in every parish and at Quarter Sessions, whenever circumstances appear to require it, the justices of the several counties may order a fair and equal rate to be made for all purposes to which such rate is liable." That explains almost in the very words of the Act of Parliament, the control of the rate at present. And now, gentlemen, that I have "'one through what may be considered the details of this matter-I should call it this omnium gatherum of taxation (laughter), we find ourselves face to face with the question of these proposed new governments for taxation, County F inancial Boards. Gentlemen, I have tl' e honour of being one of her Maj esty's Justices of the Peace (hear, hear), one of the Great Unpaid (laughter.) Great in a somewhat hyperbolical sense, and unpaid in peifeetlv literal one (laughter.) I approach this sub- Lect with as little prejudice as anyone now listening to ne (hear, hear.) And after all, what are we magis- trates with regard to these rates but a select class of ratepayers, selected by the legislature. Nobody dis- putes 1 believe, that we, as a body, do our best (ap- plause). N obody disputes our economical intentions. But the simple question is, are we the best class of rate- payers, the best selection of ratepayers that can be made or perhaps, to put the question a little better- are we ratepayers selected in the best way. You all know those who are selected, and you will agree with me that we magistrates have as much interest in solving this problem as any of you. There are three reasons assigned for the proposed change of control. The first is that economy demands it. I am an ardent admirer of economy, and I believe we are living in times when public economists ought to preach, from every political pulpit that they can get hold of, the absolute necessity of public economy (cheers.) It was stated, the other day, in the House of Commons, and it has never been contradicted, that from 1837 to 1867, a period of 30 years, our county and poor rate had increased from £ 5,294,000 to Y-,10,095,000, that is to more thau double while in 1776, some 91 years ago, they were only £ 1,727,000. The whole amount of our local taxation, at the present time, has been calculated at 121,000,000. I think, then, that economy certainly demands that something or other should be done. We now come to the second reason for this change, and that is, it is said that our great constitutional principle of representation and taxation should go together, and ought, in this respect, to be more closely followed than it is at present. There is a great deal to be said in favour of this reason, although I think we ought to remember that even now the principle of taxation and representation is followed even with regard to this county rate, because the magistrates are appointed by the Parliament to manage the rate, the Parliament which is the House of Commons, being the real governors of the country, especially now after the late Reform Bill, and an echo of the mind of the people (hear. hear.) Of course the great body of ratepayers would have a more direct voice in the matter, through these Financial Boards, than they now have. The last reason given is, that public sentiment is in favour of it. Undoubtedly there is very great foundation for this reason. I think that the confidence felt by the people by reason of their own advancement and education, their facilities for attaining knowledge on every subject, and the bond of the inter-communica- tion of ideas, makes it very natural that they should have a strong desire to take their fair share in the management of the public finances. I, for my own part, highly approve of these sentiments, because I am fully of opinion that in a government like ours, it is most advantageous that as many people as possible should take an interest in carrying on public business (cheers ) I coufd have wished that this discussion had been postponed to a date a little further on, that we could have had in our hands the government measure (cheers.) Of course there will be a government measure, almost immediately, and if we had it in our hands we could then go, in detail, into its provisions, talk them over, and consider them. I merely throw out what appears to me to be desirable in the Bill. I think the Act ought to be compulsory. I do not think permissive acts « are of any great use. I think it should be compulsory and for this plain, stmple reason; that what is good for one county must be good for the other, or to adopt a vulgar saying—" What is sauce for the goose must be sauce for the gander" (laughter). I think, too, that too large a number of representatives at the Board would be unadvisable when you get a company of men together to talk over money matters they are apt to get rather prolix in their consultations, (laughter), and I have never observed that economy is one of their virtues. I think that the members of the Boards of Guardians—I #m merely throwing out these suggestions, I do not know what the government measure will be—should select members and send them up to the Financial Board. I think, too, their deliberations should be properly re- ported that is, that the press should have free access to these County Financial Boards (cheers). I am very glad these Chambers of Agriculture have taken up this question, because I believe their province is to keep abreast of all public questions, and to examine them on the broad ground of economy and expediency, totally irrespective of party politics, but with an especial regard to the prosperity of owners and occupiers of land fcheers), for in nothing, in my humble opinion, is the identity of interest of owners and occupiers of land more clear and indisputable than it is in the prominent part which they both unfortunately play in sustaining public burdens. Gentlemen, I have endeavoured to go through this subject as briefly and as clearly as I could, and now, it is with you, as men of inteligence, as men taking an interest in public affairs, not setnahly and for your own sakes only, but for the benefit and welfare of your fellow citizens, I leave the question, thanking you all most sincerely for the kind attention with which you have listened to my remarks (applause). Mr Charles Bishop, Clerk of the Peace, having been called on, said I am perfectly willing and shall be very happy to see what is now proposed carried into effect (cheers), and I do not think, from my knowledge of the circumstances, that any of the gentlemen of this county would feel the slightest hesitation in seeing the management of the count.y rates, which is in thR bands of the magistrates at present, submitted to their sur- veillance, and to that of any number of elected gentle- men who are not magistrates (cheers.) I did not at all expect to be called upon to say anything to-day I came to hear what was said (hear, hear) It is a mat- ter that I have always felt great interest in, both as owner and occupier—that the rates which we all pay should be as small as possible, consistent with the due carrying forward of necessary works. There was one thing struck me in the letter read by the hon. gentle- man who has just addressed us, and written by the President of this Society. He apprehends that a con- siderable disappointment will take place whenever this measure is carried into operation. In that sentiment I feel bound to concur, because when you consider for one moment, although the sums raised in the counties generally are large the sums that the magistrates them- selves have to administrate are very small. We are bound by law to keep up the police force—we have no discretion—and we are bound to pay them, and as Mr Bowen has said, those counties which have an effective police force are recouped by the Government in a cer- tain proportion of the expenses. Another fund over which the Financial Boards or the magistrates either will have no control is the money now being raised for the repairs to the gaol, and what we are at present con- tributing to the lunatic asylum. All that the new Boards will have control over, will be the simple ex- penses of the county as in the matter of bridges,&c. Pro- secutions of felonies they would have no control over, be- cause they are regulated by statute, and are obliged to be paid by the county, a certain proportion being repaid out of the consolidated fund. So that, in point of fact, when you analyse the matter you find that the action of the new Boards will be very much restricted and limited to what they expect they will have to do. (Mr J. L. Philipps About the incidental expenses" cheers). I can hardly tell, unless it is that a large sum is raised with the poor-rate under the warrant of the Clerk of the Peace (laughter) for the maintenance of the county roads. (Mr Lewis, Llwynfedwen It is a large item.") It is a large item. The money is all raised in one sum—the poor rate, the county rate, the police rate, and everything else —by the collectors of the different unions Out of the £12,000 expended by this county during this year, you must deduct all that has been paid to the County Roads Board, and to the Lunatic Asylum. I don't think the goal comes in yet, because it is only money borrowed on mortgage. "What these incidental expenses are I am not prepared to tell you. But I may congratulate the inhabitants of this county on the fact that, compared with the counties of Pem- broke and Cardigan, and having regard to the amount of their respective rates, and the valuations, we fill a very creditable position with regard to economy. In almost every instance where the counties are in juxta- position with one another comparatively speaking, the expenses of Carmarthen are far lower, in proportion, than those of the other counties. You will recollect that we have in this county 200 bridges to maintain t-be number, but Y llave reason to Deneve that it is not half as much. Eive large nvers flowing through the whole length of our county, and, consequently, a vast number of bridges chargeable. The road rates the magistrates, and of course the new boards, have nothing whatever to do with; they are managed by the district roads boards, and everybody who has been a member of a district, a highway, or a union, or a county roads board, will bear witness that nothing is conducted better, or with more unanimity of feeling, between the owners of land and the occupiers, between the ex-ojficto and the elected guardians, than the manage- ment of the rates which they have to order (cheers.) I have had a great many years' experience, and have en- joyed opportunities of noticing and watching the manner in which the administering and auditing the accounts is carried on in the county, and whatever the new boards may be, I will venture to say that you will not find a more scrupulous tribunal to go before, with regard to auditing accounts or paying them, than the magistrates for this county, and that is the reason that the rates raised in this county bear so fair a pro- portion to the rates raised in smaller counties. I do not know that there is anything else to say. What- ever the result may be I may say that the magistrates of this county will heartily and joyfully accept the assistance of whatever number of colleagues they may have sent to them, in the management and control of the county funds, and if the money is economised and our rates are made lower nobody will rejoice more than I shall (cheers and laughter). Having said this much I shall leave the matter in your hands. I am sorry I cannot give the information which Mr Lewis Philipps asked for with regard to incidental expenses. It the treasurer were here with an abstract of his account he would soon tell you what those incidental expenses are. (Mr J. L. Philipps I believe they are published.") Yes they are published, and unless it is that money given to the county Roads Board I don t know what it is. I hope you will excuse my imperfect remarks, (cheers), but I trust and hope that whatever may be done the same good feeling will exist between the Justices who now administrate the funds of the county, and everyone connected wIth them, as exists now (applause). I should tell you that in this county, as in every other county, we have a Financial Board, and no sum of money is al??dto be ordered without due notice of application for 1 bewg given, so that if any justice thinks it an improper sum he make objection to it. All bills are submnted t the Finance Committee, and are examined and gone ?mto and if found correct are ordered to be pid. So that I am quite sure, excepting for the mere wish that peop e h?ve just to see how things are going on, and of  a share in the management and direction of what 1 may call their own affairs (cheers) they will find that they can do little, and that the money has been as careiully and I will say as parsimoniously managed as the justices havo had it in their power to do. Mr Bishop then called on Mr Lewis, Llwyufedwen, as a guardian of many years' experience, and a careful administrator of the public money, to address the meeting (cheers). Mr Lewis, Llwynfedwen-l must say that I am greatly obliged for the ample manner in which Mr Bowen has brought this subject before us (applausel, and I perfectly concur in the remarks that he has gene- rally made. I am sorry that Mr Bishop should call me upon my legs, because he really has not given us sufficient information on these incidental expenses (laughter). I am certain that you are all aware that the "incidental expenses" cannot be in the county road rate, because that is a rate of itself. If Mr Bishop has put these expenses before the House of Commons and I believe Mr Bowen said he had it from the House of Commons—in such a lose way as this, I am certain that Mr Bishop and the magistrates of the county of Carmarthen are very wrong in doing so (laughter Mr Bishop: It is no return of mine.") How heavy must be the expenses of the county before the incidental expenses could have been so large. (Mr Bishop It is the Treasurer's return.") Of course any return that comes from the Treasurer comes from the magistrates, and I think Mr Bishop ought to give some explanation astothisjE1900 "incidental expenses" which you all agree is a very large sum (laughter). I cannot say what the last county road rate was if my memorj serves me right, it was £700 for the Llandilo union alone, and if the rate is according to that through the whole county it must have exceeded this £ 1,900. 1 must sny that the last county road rate was very ex- travagant. (Mr Bishop: "Yes it was.") I do not believe that these "incidental expenses' are tn the county road rate, but some expenses that we are not aware of, or how they are incurred. 1 should like to see the items how it baa been incurred. If a man took a farm thirty years ago, he bad no police rate or county asylum to pay to. Now we are paying these, and building a gaol which is charged ou the ratepayers. I do not say it is an improper charge or improperly expended, but I do say that there are extravagant charges continually coming on land. I believe that others, as well as landed property, ovigiit to bear a part of the burden (cheers). Sir Massey Lopes, the other night, moved, in the House of Commons, that a committee be formed for looking into the expenses of counties I am glad that government has taken it in I hand, and that his bill is withdrawn (cheers.) The gentlemen present have not come he to condemn the magistrates for what they have done (cheers ) I do not come to condemn them. I have the greatest respect for them, and I am certain that the magistrates will have as much respect for those who join them in managing the expenses of the county (cheers.) These boards are not a new thing they were brought before the country as far back as 1850 by Mr Milner Gibson, Mr Hume, and others. I am glad to see government has taken them in hand, and as Mr Bowen has said, if their Bill bad been beforeus we should havebeenina better position to agree with it or not. You will all agree with me that members of the new Boards should not be too numer- ous, or else we should have a great many speakers, as is often the case. I see Mr Goschen, last Saturday, when he met a deputation of the ratepayers of St. Pancras, said, and I fully agree with him, that he had the greatest respect for the landowners of the county, but he wanted to amalgamate others with them, in order that if one side did not, steer a right course the others would. I perfectly agree with the advantage of County Financial Boards; and we have been petitioning for them in Llandilo Union for years. Mr Bowen—I should make one explanation. I am afraid that I did not make it sufficiently clear that this is an abstract of the accounts of every county. I should conclude that the items" incidental expenses," and j other receipts" include a number of payments which could not be put into the return without making it too large. They appear to be very large sums when put down at once. I should also say that the expenses put down in this lump form are large in other counties too. In Brecon they are £2602, and in Glamorgan £985;) 18a 9d (cries of Oh,") and in Montgomery £2316 12s q. So you see we are not peculiar (hear, hear.) I do not for an instant pretend to throw any blame on the county treasurer. Here you have certain heads of ex- penditure, and all that is not included under those heads comes under the head of "incidental expenses." That ia the way I regard it. Mr Bishop—Mr Lewis knows very well that— Mr Lewis, Llwynfedwen—If you will allow me to say one thing (lt».ught&r.) We bave h&d ft 1A"P ex- pense for building the asylum, and also for repairing it. I do not mean to say that blame is to be attached to the magistrates, but I do say that there is blame somewhere, that we should have to repair a new building (loud cheering). Mr Bishop was simply going to say that all accounts had to pass the Treasurer, and were published by him, at length, every quarter. Mr Bowen's account was merely an abstract, in which the odd-come-shorts, or whatever they were, were put under the head inci- dental." The accounts were always published in full and Mr Lewis was too astute a man not to look into the accounts of parishes, and took the greatest care that nothing improper was done as far as regarded Llandilo union (laughter). Mr Lewis was very sorry to get up again (laughter), but there was another point as to bridges. He objected to the way in which the county was making them. Look at Dowlais bridge. He defied any person to tell how the money had been expended (laughter). He would give Mr Bishop the account, and see whether he could tell how much money had been spent on the bridge, and how spent. It was a most extravagant thing; not exactly extravagant (laughter) but the worst job that was ever done (cheers.) It was done to- day, done to-morrow, and done every Quarter Sessions (laughter) and yet he defied any person to say that it was a good job (much laughter.) Mr Brodie said he came to learn, and it would be his own fault if he did not learn a good deal (laughter). He had dropped down from a new country where they had different laws and he never took the least interest in the county expenses. There could only be one mind as to the desirability of having elected members to act with the magistrates in managing the county finances (cheers), and he had no doubt the magistrates would be very happy to receive their assistance, and to divide the pay with them (laughter.) If he had a vote, he should give it to Mr Lewis, of Llwynfedwen, as one of the members of the new board (laughter.) Mr Davies, Ystradwalter, had nothing to say in con. demnation of it. He could see no objection to having elected members of a Board to act with the magistrates; and he believed the gentlemen of the county would have no objection to it. It would not perhaps do us much good, but it was in harmony with the popular principle that everything should be open to the know- ledge of every man (cheers). They could not discuss rating to-day, but he would like to see that subject introduced by some gentleman of the ability of Mr Bowen (loud cheering.) Probably it might lead to a lightening of their burdens if the subject could be taken up generally. It was eatiy to elect a few representative members and there would be no less confidence in the magistrates, who were very proper people to attend to mch duties. He really wished somebody would intro- duce the subject of the equalization of poor-rates. The relief of the poor was a national duty, which every individual ought to assist in some way or other. (Mr Bishop: "So is the lunatic asvlumDir^ft tnratinn and invisible property was too low. He could not find one fault with the remarks of Mr Bowen or Mr Bishop. He never had an idea that any great improvement would follow the formation of the Boards, but, as more publicity would be afforded, he would never oppose it. The Chairman said there was no doubt that if the rating was unequal some must pay too much. Investi- gation showed that the rateable value of the west end of London was much lower than that at the east end. In the east end, the rateable value was up to the rack- rent and at the west end down to one half the actual rent. A county rate made from the poor rate would, then bear very unequally. He did not know how far that kind of thing affected this county. Mr Bishop—Mr Lewis does'nt complain of that; hia parish is very low-rated (laughter). Mr Lewis—Llandilo union is very highly rated and Llandovery is not (laughter). If we have an equaliza- tion of rates, we shall see that too (laughter). Mr H. Morgan, Llwyn, did not see that these Boards whether elected or selected, would be able to do much good. They bad heard of a great many things from Mr Bishop, which the boards would not have to inter- fere with and he doubted whether there was much that they would have to interfere with. Air Lewis had referred to the police and asylum rates that a man had not to pay thirty years ago; surely it was not the fault of the present finance committee that those ratee had to be paid now (hear, hear.) The taxes caused by extra crime and extra police, by extra infirmity in the shape of imbecility and extra provision of asylums, were owing not only to the faults but to the misfortunes of human nature (cheers.) He thought County Financial Boards would do no good. At present the magistrates of the county had to deal with the finances, and they were responsible but if other gentlemen were elected they might say, Oh, we have so many gentlemen to act with Ub, we will leave it to them this time." Thus a great deal of the responsibility would be taken off their shoulders, and they would not feel the same iuterest in the management of the funds as before. He considered that the magistrates now took more care and pains to have the money properly expended than they would if the finances were put into a greater number of hands. Mr J. L. Phillips said he did not like the meeting to pass without expressing his views. He was extremely obliged to Mr Bowen for the way in which he had brought it forward (cheers). He agreed with Lord Cawdor that the Boards would be of little advantage. Whenever the ratepayers had a voice in the matter of finances, such as the District Roads Boards, and the administration of the poor rates, or where the magistrates are ex-officio members the magistrates left things pretty much to the ratepayers. The business of the Boards of Guardians was carried on by Guardians almost entirely [A voice Good thing He expected that the formation of the Financial Boards would have the same effect. In the matter of county bridges, more economy might be exercised (cheers). Large sums had been spent unnecessarily on some of them, and if these new Boards were formed, no doubt the ratepayers would build them a great deal cheaper. The same with gaols (cheers). The ratepayers would be content with good stout buildings but of less taste and pretensions. The representation of the ratepayers on the Boarde was a very good thing in itself, but the Boards would not do any very great good. Mr Jones, Penycoed, had great confidence in the magistrates, and believed they had the best intentions to relieve the ratepayers as much as possible. A mixed board, however, would be an advantage, as the rate- payers would keep an eye on what was doing in their own localities (cheers.) There were many large Items of expenditure, especially the gaol; but the gaol tended to the protection of the life and property of the commu- nity, therefore the oommunity at large ought to pay for it, and it ought not to be charged on a local rate. Mr Mousley said he had not qualified himself to give an opinion on the matter, becanue he had not the honour of being a ratepayer (laughter.) The Chairman said they were obliged to Mr Bowen for his very clear and masterly address (applause). The opinion of the meeting seemed to be that much might be saved in lunatic asylums, and particularly in bridges. The magistrates were as suitable for their work as could be found, still it, was natural that those who contributed largely to tho rates should like to have a voice in their government. He could not but think that, if man were chosen to sit on these Boards, it would jeM to economy in bridges and asylums, &c. (ehchers). t e reflected upon nobody, and believed that t e con J II rried on (cheers), affairs were well and economically carried on (c A vote of thanks to Mr Bowen was carried with acclamation. Mr Bowen said it bad given him great P?, ? to r vowen sal I A." fA' It re were come there (cheers). Chambers of AgrM?ture wer?e useful institution, and he was glad to see them estab- lished aU ?er the country. Mr Reed, the memb^er for No.-folk had once said to him tba. he felt thet.mewas certainly coming, when H would bo absolute!y nece* sary that occup.era of land and owners also shodW :e th.ir voices heard on pubhc questios (applause.) A vot? of thanks was passPed ?t?o ?the ?c??.m?an.a?nd a f th ie of County resolution approving of the P"??. of < £ Financial Boards was carried, and M to be ?Mnt ?to tMg Central Chamber,

for their good wishes, said As for the Bishop you all know him well, he lives so near you I may say, too, that you are all proud of him, and that as a man he is respected not only by the members of the established church, but also by the nonconformists (cheers.) He is a man of broad and enlarged views (hear, hear.) He really strives to do his duty, and I may say that he does it admirably. He has improved the condition of the church in his diocese, very much indeed, perhaps more than any of his predecessors. We see new churches springing up, and new parsonage houses too, in all directions. He has also been a friend to the poor bene- fices. When he first came here, he found the church very much neglected. In some instances six or seven livings were vested in the same person, and that worthy person living at Clifton or Cheltenham, or somewhere else, giving all the work to under-paid curates (laugh- ter.) That and other abuses have been done away with, and the church in Wales Is looking up. Of course its improvement is a matter of time. The subject is now under discussion in London. I see Convocation has at last thought proper to discuss the Welsh Church (hear, hear.) As to the Established Church generally, the question is practically before the public to-night in the House of Commons, there is a regular fight (laugh- ter.) But whatever may be the fate of the Establish- ment in Ireland, I hope it may be for the benefit of true religion, and that they will agree in settling the affairs of the church to the satisfaction of the nation. The Irish Church is, in one sense, a grievance, although it may, perhaps, not be right of me, as a member of the Established Church, to say that it should be abolished. I say, certainly not, nor dis-established. But when we consider that there are only a very small part of the nation members of the Established Church, when we consider that a very great body of the nation are Roman Catholics, we feel it is right that their claims should be considered. As for the Church in Wales, I do not think, judging by the appearances of the times, that there is a fate similar to that of the Irish Church in store for us yet, although it may come throughout the whole country sooner or later but whenever the Church is dis-established, I hope and believe that religion will still be maintained, and that the country will do well under the voluntary system. The voluntary system works well. It has worked well in this town. We know that two churches here have been built en- tirely by the voluntary system. The old system of church-rate was very one-sided, and quite unfitted for growing towns or mining districts. Under the volun- tary system new churches are springing up, just as we saw chapels fifty years ago. The Nonconformists were not mentioned in the toast, but I think it is but right, living as we do, in this country, where the majority of the people are Nonconformists, that I should return thanks on their behalf (loud and prolonged cheering.) I hope that the system of education will be enlarged and that we shall have universities in Wales, where our youths may be educated as they are in Scotland, and that we shall have an improvement in the general condition of the Dissenting Ministers (hear, hear.) The rev. gentleman concluded by again tendering his thanks to the company. The Chairman proposed the Lord Lieutenant's health, which was drunk with musical honours, and tremendous cheering. Major Hill proposed the health ot Lord Dynevor, re- ferring to the many ways in which the volunteers were indebted to his lordship. (His lordship's name was received with shouts of applause, and the toast was drunk with a warmth of feeling, almost impossible to describe.) The Chairman proposed the members for the county, Mr John Jones, and Mr (cries of Sartoris," and much laughter). The toast was drunk with due honours. The Chairman next proposed the health of Colonel Stepney, M P. They knew him very well; they saw him three times a year, (laughter), and he gave them plenty to do. (A voice Chip o' the old block" laughter.) Major Hill proposed success to Nos. 2 and 6 com- panies. That day was the ninth anniversary of the formation of No. 2, which was formerly one of the fiuest companies in the regiment. Both companies had seen many ups and downs and No. 2 was not now what it had been. He had kept a statistical return ever since he came here. When he first came, No. 2 was G8 men strong, next year 82 this year they were 76. In the first year, out of 68 men only 23 were efficient next year, 53 this year there were 56 efficients. Only 17 men gained the extra efficiency by shooting, in the first year next year 41 this year 42. So that No. 2 had increased in every way. No. 6, the first year he was Adjutant, was 80 strong, last year they decreased one man the first year there were 46 efficients, out of 80 next year 59, out of 79 last year 56 out of 71 The first year they bad 43 extra-efficients next year 30 and last year 32 last yeat they earned £ 74 next year X75 10s No. 2 earning 1.73 10s aud £ 77 last year. That progress was gratifying to him and to them. Great credit was due to Sergeant Major Kyle, as they would all agree, (applause), for his indefatigable exertions on the drill ground and at the target. He made the men drill and shoot, and if there were only a f OTT Lv wu nilJiug JI\y vtalj saiil ucAno LLir: sergeant major's face what he bad often said behind his back. They ought not to be satisfied with what they had done, there was no reason why every man should not be an efficient, and an extra-efficient. There were administrative battalions which accomplished that. If every man in No. 2 was efficient there would be £ 114 in their hands; and £ 106 10s in the hands of No. 6, if they did the game. There were 52 weeks in the year, and one or two drills a week and only six drills were required annually why could they not attend them. The battalion drills were the most diflcult, to attend, on account of business. He entreated every man to try and spare three days a year to go to battalion drill. The Carmarthen companies ought to be 100 strong every volunteer should try to enlist his friend. He Was a great advocate for the physical improvement of young men and was convinced that every man was the better for a little drill. (Cheers) He then pro- posed the toast, coupling with it the names of Captain Browne Edwardes and, in the absence of Captain Warren, Lieutenant Barker. (Cheers). Captain Edwardes, said they had been going a-head. It was easy to do all that Major Hill had suggested. Three years ago No. 2 only earned £31 10s and then a lot of recruits came in, and every penny of the money went in clothing, leaving nothing for the range and other expenses. It was all very well to come there and hurrah, and drink beer, and smoke pipes but the military ardour evaporated out of their elbows in the morning If they would only make the whole company efficient for once, he should die the proudest man in the world. (Cheers). He saw around him old faces who came very steadily to the annual dinner, but very seldom appeared in the ranks. (Laughter and Oh.") He hoped, however, that a new leaf would be turned over, and that No. 2 would regain its old prestige. There were all the old elements there, and they could easily accomplish it if they liked to do so. Lieutenant Barker regretted that he was compelled to appear instead of the-Captain of his company. He had received a letter slating that pressing engagements prevented Capt Warren from being present at the dinner. He felt great humility in representing Captain Warren, because, very often, captains of companies received great assistance from their subalterns, but he (Lieut. Barker) confessed, with some degree of shame, that Captain Warren received but little from him. Captain Warren stood alone in the administration of the com- pany and he conducted it very well indeed. He had often promised, at previous annual dinners to be more regular at drill, but he bad been unable to fulfil those promises. The humiliation which he felt in responding to that toast disappeared when he remembered that this was the ninth anniversary of the formation of the Carmarthen volunteers and that he was one of the first to join No. 2 in 1860, and be had been a volunteer ever since, first in No. 2, then in No. 6. No one looked back with greater pleasure than he did, to the old times when No. 2 was what it was but he cautioned the old members, and the volunteers generally, with regard to old times, that they were apt to forget that the world was moving on, that old members wero falling out. and new ones coming in, that neither company could im- prove if it were not so, and that if they wished to pro- gress they must encourage the infusion of new blood. He echoed Major Hill's observations as to attendance at drill; no person spoke with greater weight on that subject than did Major Hill, and he sincerely trusted that the Major's appeal would be heartily responded to next year. In conclusion, on behalf of No. 6, on behalf of its captain, who was unfortunately absent, and on behalf of the ensign, who was not in existence, he offered his best thanks for the manner in which the toast had been received. After a short pause, Lieut. Barker proposed the health of Major Hill, (applause), as one who had from his first appearance here, been the Unflagging friend of the volunteer cause, devoted to the interests of every company in the battalion. Major Hill in replying said the task of an adjutant of volunteers was often a disagreeable one; but be had been thoroughly happy and it would have been his own fault if he had not. From Col. Davies, of whose kindness he had the most lively recollection, from Col. Stepney whose zeal and activity ought to be a stimulus to younger men, from officers and men alike he had received great assistance. No one helped the volunteers in any way more gladly than he did and if spared he should continue to do so on every opportunity that offered itself. That day was St. David's Day, and exactly that day 30 years ago he joined the British Army (cheers). That day 30 years ago he became a Welsh- man, by joining the gjarious old Welsh Fusiliers (loud applause, a voice  for ever;" laughter) h colours which he had often carried, had found a resting P?ce in the pansh church (cheers). It was the restwg ;f the regiment that every new officer, on initia- C?stoonld in the presence of the colours of the regi- bon, s. theP ence of the officers, and of the regi- ment,1D the p a leek and drink to fbe health of St mental goat, ea a and much lighter). And in that David (loud app aUlshl11an. He approved of these way he becme by their means officers and privates annual meetmgs by ?e. Re- 4aet together and eveiy ?e??? ? thought. Re- ferring to the numbers oithe?o ? ?.? he quoted ? ? ? vo l unteers, from a paper drawn up by a d( ;utant of volunteers, giving the percentage of vo??8 to the popu- lation of each county. The 19 highest regi- ments were Scotch and the lowest were the Welsh. The only explanation was that the popu- lation was scattered. In Welsh town the com- panies ought to be stronger at Llanelly, he believed they were going to form another company. There was no reason why they should not have two strong com- panies at Carmarthen. (Corporal Terry: "We must have a band cheers). In this paper he had alluded to, Dumbarton had the largest per centage of volunteers to population about 2k men to every 100 of population; next came Caithness 89 counties were mentioned in the returns, and Carmarthenshire stood 80th on the list the per centage of volunteers to population being not quite half a man to every 100 inhabitants. He then recommended going to the range earlier in the season. A fine spring day would be much pleasanter for shooting than an autumn one. Punctuality at drill was another point, which required more strict observance. A good plan would be not to give a mark to any volunteer who fell in after a certain tirue. Major Hill, then referred to a pretty sharp" article which appeared some time ago in the WELSHMAN. It was there suggested that the battalion should attend brigade drill. He entirely differed from that; our men were very fair in company drill, but they failed in battalion drill. The men learnt their work in company drill; the officers in battalion drill. In brigade drill, no one learnt their work except commanding officers. All the privates had to do was to obey the word of command. His opinion was con- firmed by the remarks made by Colonel Bruce in reviewing a Devonshire corps, which, it appears, never mustered largely except to go to a large review. The article in the WELSHMAN seemed to infer that the Carmarthenshire County Rifle Association," was simply meant for the advantage of shooting, and not for the promotion of efficiency. That was not so; no man could belong to the Carmarthenshire County Association" unless he was efficient. If people would take the trouble to read the rules, they would find that the money so liberally given was for the purpose not only of encou- raging shooting but, indirectly, of increasing effici ency, and that money could no more be devoted to another object than the money given to one charity could be devoted to the purposes of another. There was one admirable suggestion in the article-but we must first catch our hare-add that was to give a prize for the best drilled company. If companies of 20 files, or a given number of files, were chosen, and an adjudicator totally independent of the battalion appointed, if it was also held late in the year, it would be very useful to the corps. If they could only find anyone liberal enough to offer a prize for the best drilled company, it would add as much as anything be knew of to the advancement of the efficiency of the regiment (cheers). In conclusion he assured them he looked upon their reception of his name as a compliment but the greatest compliment they could pay him was for every man to become efficient (cheers). The Chairman then proposed the health of Sergeant Major Kyle. The medals he wore on his breast pro- claimed the man. His uniting exertions for the welfare of the companies they all knew perfectly well. (The toast was drunk with the greatest jollity). Sergeant Major Kyle responded to the toast, thanking the officers and men for the kindness they had always shown him both now and in former times (cheers). Several other toasts were proposed, including the Mayor and Corporation," responded to by the Mayor, Lieutenant J. Lewis, No. 2, who received a jolly wel- come." Mr T. M. Davies also responded. Colonel Scott, the volunteers friend," who was loudly applauded. The Noncommissioned officers"; responded to by Colour-Sergeant Williams, No. 2, and Colour-Sergeant T. Jones, No. 6 the health of Capt. Warren, No. 6," which was welcomed most heartily, and received all possible honours; "Health of Lieut. Barker." "The donor of prizes to the shooting Associations," acknow- ledged by Major Hill; and "The Ladies," to which Mr T. M. Davies, responded. During the evening, Mr T M. Davies, Colour Sergeant T. Jones, Mr Parry, Mr E. C. Evans, and several other gentlemen enlivened the proceedings with some capital songs which were greatly appreciated. A very jolly evening was spent, and the companies broke off" at eleven o'clock.